Questions on TUPE
Discussion
My employer has told me that IT function has been outsourced and my contract will be moved to third party vendor, TUPE will apply. The process will take 3-4 months.
I have done some research on TUPE but still have few more questions. I think my current contract would stay same but my pension is not protected.
1- What about other benefits like Bupa medical and dental insurance? Are they protected ?
2- I am on 30 days annual leave plus bank holidays, would i get the same amount of holidays ?
3- After TUPE over, can a new company change my salary ? and can this be changed straight after starting with the new company ?
4- I am on 3 months notice, how would this work if i want to leave before the final TUPE over date?
Thanks for your time reading this post.
I have done some research on TUPE but still have few more questions. I think my current contract would stay same but my pension is not protected.
1- What about other benefits like Bupa medical and dental insurance? Are they protected ?
2- I am on 30 days annual leave plus bank holidays, would i get the same amount of holidays ?
3- After TUPE over, can a new company change my salary ? and can this be changed straight after starting with the new company ?
4- I am on 3 months notice, how would this work if i want to leave before the final TUPE over date?
Thanks for your time reading this post.
Your pension is a little difficult to answer as it depends upon the scheme etc (DB or DC as well) however http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/649 applies.
Your benefits etc still apply under Regulation 4, the new employer takes over your contract.
Your benefits etc still apply under Regulation 4, the new employer takes over your contract.
Jasandjules said:
Your pension is a little difficult to answer as it depends upon the scheme etc (DB or DC as well) however http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/649 applies.
Your benefits etc still apply under Regulation 4, the new employer takes over your contract.
With the new company, would my salary be changed to what i was offered when i started the role with my current company?Your benefits etc still apply under Regulation 4, the new employer takes over your contract.
Jasandjules said:
No your contract remains the same.
Is there any difference b/w contract and job offer letter ?As per my offer letter , i was offered X amount when i started the role but over the period my salary got increased and now i am on Y amount.
I also signed the contract letter but there is no mention of starting salary on there.
Would i start from X or Y amount ?
Edited by Steve Dyson on Tuesday 3rd March 19:20
Steve Dyson said:
Jasandjules said:
Your terms remain as they are at transfer date. Salary, benefits etc all the same.
Thanks.I have been involved (from both sides) where people haven't played fair. As your new firm is serving the old, however, I'd imagine they'll want to play fair.
Generally anything contractual is protected in the same way as it would be with your current employer. However, for benefits like health cover the terms of the schemes e.g. available hospitals etc., can change year to year as the employer moves suppliers, the same is true of a change of scheme provider due to a TUPE. Effectively, the provision of the scheme is likely to be contractual but the terms not so. That said, if there was a vast difference in the level of cover that could be argued as being a TUPE breach.
Some benefits are tied to the former employer e.g. discounted share schemes, company performance based bonus schemes, staff discounts etc. these can be ended at transfer as it would not be possible to transfer them over. Bonuses are a difficult one as the contractual obligation could be to provide a bonus scheme but the terms could be amended each year so could be less beneficial, you need to read the terms of the scheme.
Read and understand your contract/employee handbook, these will normally set-out what is contractual and what right there is to vary benefit terms. At a simplistic level - if the current employer can vary something the new employer can. But that is very simplistic as I would expect a challenge if I stopped everything I could leaving the employees significantly worse off as a result of the transfer.
Salary, holiday etc. is protected and should not detrimentally change. TUPE protection doesn’t end once the transfer is concluded, however, it is harder to argue a change is related to the transfer the further you get from that transfer. We often see ‘harmonisation’ exercises down the line where companies that acquire lots of different terms and conditions try to bring these together based on simplification and cost saving, these still require consultation/agreement but are rarely argued against as a breach of TUPE.
Pensions are a complex bugger, if you are moving DC to DC I would expect the contribution rates to be broadly replicated. If it is DB to DC it is much more complicated and many companies say given you are comparing apples with oranges and technically any DC could out perform any DB or vice versa then simply providing a scheme is sufficient. If you are in such a situation then I would recommend that you ask the acquiring company to provide some form of pensions advice, if they don’t then you may want to fund this yourself. If you are in a union they may be able to arrange this.
I have TUPEd, or international equivalent, over 30,000 contracts over many years. I would suggest that you take a holistic view of what is being offered, don’t get hung-up on the loss of little things look at how you are treated in the round. I have seen people get upset because we couldn’t replicate a non-contractual staff discount ignoring that we were moving them into a better bonus scheme or increasing holiday entitlement etc. which would be more lucrative.
The new employer has to consult with you or your representatives, raise any concerns through that process. You will find that generally the new employer does not want to acquire a load of pissed off employees, as such, they will normally address any concerns or offset something they cannot replicate.
The final thing I would add is to suggest that you step back from focusing on just the contract and terms and conditions and consider the big picture. Often in TUPEs the acquiring company specialises in the activities that the employees undertake, as such, the employees could find they have access to better training or career progression as a result of the transfer. Well worth understanding as part of the consultation process.
Some benefits are tied to the former employer e.g. discounted share schemes, company performance based bonus schemes, staff discounts etc. these can be ended at transfer as it would not be possible to transfer them over. Bonuses are a difficult one as the contractual obligation could be to provide a bonus scheme but the terms could be amended each year so could be less beneficial, you need to read the terms of the scheme.
Read and understand your contract/employee handbook, these will normally set-out what is contractual and what right there is to vary benefit terms. At a simplistic level - if the current employer can vary something the new employer can. But that is very simplistic as I would expect a challenge if I stopped everything I could leaving the employees significantly worse off as a result of the transfer.
Salary, holiday etc. is protected and should not detrimentally change. TUPE protection doesn’t end once the transfer is concluded, however, it is harder to argue a change is related to the transfer the further you get from that transfer. We often see ‘harmonisation’ exercises down the line where companies that acquire lots of different terms and conditions try to bring these together based on simplification and cost saving, these still require consultation/agreement but are rarely argued against as a breach of TUPE.
Pensions are a complex bugger, if you are moving DC to DC I would expect the contribution rates to be broadly replicated. If it is DB to DC it is much more complicated and many companies say given you are comparing apples with oranges and technically any DC could out perform any DB or vice versa then simply providing a scheme is sufficient. If you are in such a situation then I would recommend that you ask the acquiring company to provide some form of pensions advice, if they don’t then you may want to fund this yourself. If you are in a union they may be able to arrange this.
I have TUPEd, or international equivalent, over 30,000 contracts over many years. I would suggest that you take a holistic view of what is being offered, don’t get hung-up on the loss of little things look at how you are treated in the round. I have seen people get upset because we couldn’t replicate a non-contractual staff discount ignoring that we were moving them into a better bonus scheme or increasing holiday entitlement etc. which would be more lucrative.
The new employer has to consult with you or your representatives, raise any concerns through that process. You will find that generally the new employer does not want to acquire a load of pissed off employees, as such, they will normally address any concerns or offset something they cannot replicate.
The final thing I would add is to suggest that you step back from focusing on just the contract and terms and conditions and consider the big picture. Often in TUPEs the acquiring company specialises in the activities that the employees undertake, as such, the employees could find they have access to better training or career progression as a result of the transfer. Well worth understanding as part of the consultation process.
HappySilver said:
Generally anything contractual is protected in the same way as it would be with your current employer. However, for benefits like health cover the terms of the schemes e.g. available hospitals etc., can change year to year as the employer moves suppliers, the same is true of a change of scheme provider due to a TUPE. Effectively, the provision of the scheme is likely to be contractual but the terms not so. That said, if there was a vast difference in the level of cover that could be argued as being a TUPE breach.
Some benefits are tied to the former employer e.g. discounted share schemes, company performance based bonus schemes, staff discounts etc. these can be ended at transfer as it would not be possible to transfer them over. Bonuses are a difficult one as the contractual obligation could be to provide a bonus scheme but the terms could be amended each year so could be less beneficial, you need to read the terms of the scheme.
Read and understand your contract/employee handbook, these will normally set-out what is contractual and what right there is to vary benefit terms. At a simplistic level - if the current employer can vary something the new employer can. But that is very simplistic as I would expect a challenge if I stopped everything I could leaving the employees significantly worse off as a result of the transfer.
Salary, holiday etc. is protected and should not detrimentally change. TUPE protection doesn’t end once the transfer is concluded, however, it is harder to argue a change is related to the transfer the further you get from that transfer. We often see ‘harmonisation’ exercises down the line where companies that acquire lots of different terms and conditions try to bring these together based on simplification and cost saving, these still require consultation/agreement but are rarely argued against as a breach of TUPE.
Pensions are a complex bugger, if you are moving DC to DC I would expect the contribution rates to be broadly replicated. If it is DB to DC it is much more complicated and many companies say given you are comparing apples with oranges and technically any DC could out perform any DB or vice versa then simply providing a scheme is sufficient. If you are in such a situation then I would recommend that you ask the acquiring company to provide some form of pensions advice, if they don’t then you may want to fund this yourself. If you are in a union they may be able to arrange this.
I have TUPEd, or international equivalent, over 30,000 contracts over many years. I would suggest that you take a holistic view of what is being offered, don’t get hung-up on the loss of little things look at how you are treated in the round. I have seen people get upset because we couldn’t replicate a non-contractual staff discount ignoring that we were moving them into a better bonus scheme or increasing holiday entitlement etc. which would be more lucrative.
The new employer has to consult with you or your representatives, raise any concerns through that process. You will find that generally the new employer does not want to acquire a load of pissed off employees, as such, they will normally address any concerns or offset something they cannot replicate.
The final thing I would add is to suggest that you step back from focusing on just the contract and terms and conditions and consider the big picture. Often in TUPEs the acquiring company specialises in the activities that the employees undertake, as such, the employees could find they have access to better training or career progression as a result of the transfer. Well worth understanding as part of the consultation process.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate it.Some benefits are tied to the former employer e.g. discounted share schemes, company performance based bonus schemes, staff discounts etc. these can be ended at transfer as it would not be possible to transfer them over. Bonuses are a difficult one as the contractual obligation could be to provide a bonus scheme but the terms could be amended each year so could be less beneficial, you need to read the terms of the scheme.
Read and understand your contract/employee handbook, these will normally set-out what is contractual and what right there is to vary benefit terms. At a simplistic level - if the current employer can vary something the new employer can. But that is very simplistic as I would expect a challenge if I stopped everything I could leaving the employees significantly worse off as a result of the transfer.
Salary, holiday etc. is protected and should not detrimentally change. TUPE protection doesn’t end once the transfer is concluded, however, it is harder to argue a change is related to the transfer the further you get from that transfer. We often see ‘harmonisation’ exercises down the line where companies that acquire lots of different terms and conditions try to bring these together based on simplification and cost saving, these still require consultation/agreement but are rarely argued against as a breach of TUPE.
Pensions are a complex bugger, if you are moving DC to DC I would expect the contribution rates to be broadly replicated. If it is DB to DC it is much more complicated and many companies say given you are comparing apples with oranges and technically any DC could out perform any DB or vice versa then simply providing a scheme is sufficient. If you are in such a situation then I would recommend that you ask the acquiring company to provide some form of pensions advice, if they don’t then you may want to fund this yourself. If you are in a union they may be able to arrange this.
I have TUPEd, or international equivalent, over 30,000 contracts over many years. I would suggest that you take a holistic view of what is being offered, don’t get hung-up on the loss of little things look at how you are treated in the round. I have seen people get upset because we couldn’t replicate a non-contractual staff discount ignoring that we were moving them into a better bonus scheme or increasing holiday entitlement etc. which would be more lucrative.
The new employer has to consult with you or your representatives, raise any concerns through that process. You will find that generally the new employer does not want to acquire a load of pissed off employees, as such, they will normally address any concerns or offset something they cannot replicate.
The final thing I would add is to suggest that you step back from focusing on just the contract and terms and conditions and consider the big picture. Often in TUPEs the acquiring company specialises in the activities that the employees undertake, as such, the employees could find they have access to better training or career progression as a result of the transfer. Well worth understanding as part of the consultation process.
I don't mind losing few holidays or other perks but main concern is with the new employer. I have read their employees review on glass door and they are not good. I had a discussion with people who have TUPED over to same company in the past and they told me the same thing that new employer will keep you for knowledge sharing and then dump you after that because they can find the cheap employees in India.
Also, i think it is better to leave sooner than later otherwise there will be a skill gap for me.
As per your previous 2 posts on the same subject...
The only good news with the virus is that travel restrictions (from HCL) might buy you a few months.
vaud said:
Their focus will be getting your role offshore to India as fast as possible. "Knowledge transfer" and they will take some risk in not knowing everything about the app. They will have built a set of assumptions into the transition plan. As a custom in house app you MIGHT be one of the later phases - they will focus on the highest level of resource apps first that they know the best SAP/Oracle/etc
They will take some risk in not knowing everything.
For term, no that is just their contractual term to your company. Unless you are listed as critical resource (in which case they will talk to you about retention) then as long as they deliver the SLA promised, that 5 year commit does not flow down.
They will want a 90% offshore delivery ratio. Seek a package to leave while lining up up jobs.They will take some risk in not knowing everything.
For term, no that is just their contractual term to your company. Unless you are listed as critical resource (in which case they will talk to you about retention) then as long as they deliver the SLA promised, that 5 year commit does not flow down.
The only good news with the virus is that travel restrictions (from HCL) might buy you a few months.
HappySilver said:
Generally anything contractual is protected in the same way as it would be with your current employer. However, for benefits like health cover the terms of the schemes e.g. available hospitals etc., can change year to year as the employer moves suppliers, the same is true of a change of scheme provider due to a TUPE. Effectively, the provision of the scheme is likely to be contractual but the terms not so. That said, if there was a vast difference in the level of cover that could be argued as being a TUPE breach.
Some benefits are tied to the former employer e.g. discounted share schemes, company performance based bonus schemes, staff discounts etc. these can be ended at transfer as it would not be possible to transfer them over. Bonuses are a difficult one as the contractual obligation could be to provide a bonus scheme but the terms could be amended each year so could be less beneficial, you need to read the terms of the scheme.
Read and understand your contract/employee handbook, these will normally set-out what is contractual and what right there is to vary benefit terms. At a simplistic level - if the current employer can vary something the new employer can. But that is very simplistic as I would expect a challenge if I stopped everything I could leaving the employees significantly worse off as a result of the transfer.
Salary, holiday etc. is protected and should not detrimentally change. TUPE protection doesn’t end once the transfer is concluded, however, it is harder to argue a change is related to the transfer the further you get from that transfer. We often see ‘harmonisation’ exercises down the line where companies that acquire lots of different terms and conditions try to bring these together based on simplification and cost saving, these still require consultation/agreement but are rarely argued against as a breach of TUPE.
Pensions are a complex bugger, if you are moving DC to DC I would expect the contribution rates to be broadly replicated. If it is DB to DC it is much more complicated and many companies say given you are comparing apples with oranges and technically any DC could out perform any DB or vice versa then simply providing a scheme is sufficient. If you are in such a situation then I would recommend that you ask the acquiring company to provide some form of pensions advice, if they don’t then you may want to fund this yourself. If you are in a union they may be able to arrange this.
I have TUPEd, or international equivalent, over 30,000 contracts over many years. I would suggest that you take a holistic view of what is being offered, don’t get hung-up on the loss of little things look at how you are treated in the round. I have seen people get upset because we couldn’t replicate a non-contractual staff discount ignoring that we were moving them into a better bonus scheme or increasing holiday entitlement etc. which would be more lucrative.
The new employer has to consult with you or your representatives, raise any concerns through that process. You will find that generally the new employer does not want to acquire a load of pissed off employees, as such, they will normally address any concerns or offset something they cannot replicate.
The final thing I would add is to suggest that you step back from focusing on just the contract and terms and conditions and consider the big picture. Often in TUPEs the acquiring company specialises in the activities that the employees undertake, as such, the employees could find they have access to better training or career progression as a result of the transfer. Well worth understanding as part of the consultation process.
I am on 3 month notice, what happens if i refuse to work for the new company? Is it true that i can walk away without giving 3 month notice ?Some benefits are tied to the former employer e.g. discounted share schemes, company performance based bonus schemes, staff discounts etc. these can be ended at transfer as it would not be possible to transfer them over. Bonuses are a difficult one as the contractual obligation could be to provide a bonus scheme but the terms could be amended each year so could be less beneficial, you need to read the terms of the scheme.
Read and understand your contract/employee handbook, these will normally set-out what is contractual and what right there is to vary benefit terms. At a simplistic level - if the current employer can vary something the new employer can. But that is very simplistic as I would expect a challenge if I stopped everything I could leaving the employees significantly worse off as a result of the transfer.
Salary, holiday etc. is protected and should not detrimentally change. TUPE protection doesn’t end once the transfer is concluded, however, it is harder to argue a change is related to the transfer the further you get from that transfer. We often see ‘harmonisation’ exercises down the line where companies that acquire lots of different terms and conditions try to bring these together based on simplification and cost saving, these still require consultation/agreement but are rarely argued against as a breach of TUPE.
Pensions are a complex bugger, if you are moving DC to DC I would expect the contribution rates to be broadly replicated. If it is DB to DC it is much more complicated and many companies say given you are comparing apples with oranges and technically any DC could out perform any DB or vice versa then simply providing a scheme is sufficient. If you are in such a situation then I would recommend that you ask the acquiring company to provide some form of pensions advice, if they don’t then you may want to fund this yourself. If you are in a union they may be able to arrange this.
I have TUPEd, or international equivalent, over 30,000 contracts over many years. I would suggest that you take a holistic view of what is being offered, don’t get hung-up on the loss of little things look at how you are treated in the round. I have seen people get upset because we couldn’t replicate a non-contractual staff discount ignoring that we were moving them into a better bonus scheme or increasing holiday entitlement etc. which would be more lucrative.
The new employer has to consult with you or your representatives, raise any concerns through that process. You will find that generally the new employer does not want to acquire a load of pissed off employees, as such, they will normally address any concerns or offset something they cannot replicate.
The final thing I would add is to suggest that you step back from focusing on just the contract and terms and conditions and consider the big picture. Often in TUPEs the acquiring company specialises in the activities that the employees undertake, as such, the employees could find they have access to better training or career progression as a result of the transfer. Well worth understanding as part of the consultation process.
HappySilver said:
The final thing I would add is to suggest that you step back from focusing on just the contract and terms and conditions and consider the big picture. Often in TUPEs the acquiring company specialises in the activities that the employees undertake, as such, the employees could find they have access to better training or career progression as a result of the transfer. Well worth understanding as part of the consultation process.
In some sectors yes. Not in IT for someone like HCL/TCS who will be targeting extreme levels of offshore. Onshore teams, even for shared functions (e.g. HCL sales, solution architecture, etc) is also heavily offshored.
I do know people that TUPEd and made a career at the likes of Fujitsu, Capgemini, ATOS, but they tend to have higher onshore ratios overall (but still 55-65% offshore overall)
Edit: 15 years experience in global IT services (supply side), esp outsourcing
Edited by vaud on Thursday 5th March 12:42
HappySilver said:
Salary, holiday etc. is protected and should not detrimentally change. TUPE protection doesn’t end once the transfer is concluded, however, it is harder to argue a change is related to the transfer the further you get from that transfer. We often see ‘harmonisation’ exercises down the line where companies that acquire lots of different terms and conditions try to bring these together based on simplification and cost saving, these still require consultation/agreement but are rarely argued against as a breach of TUPE.
Yep, been there done that.I was TUPE'd several years ago (previous job), and while all these things were protected at the time - it wasn't long before they wanted to "harmonise". Our base salary actually increased by a fair bit - but the loss of benefits meant that most of us were financially worse off.
In that instance, we were quite lucky with pensions though. Many of us were on final salary pensions - but the new company refused to continue that. However, instead they gave us individually tailored pension packages to compensate and were pretty generous - they were paying 18% into my pension while I was with them.
Steve Dyson said:
I am on 3 month notice, what happens if i refuse to work for the new company? Is it true that i can walk away without giving 3 month notice ?
Yes. I have jut gone though this process, resigned on 8th Feb with three months notice to work and the TUPE date was 24th Feb. I confirmed to the company that I was opting out of he TUPE process and my contract was terminated on 25th FebCotty said:
Steve Dyson said:
I am on 3 month notice, what happens if i refuse to work for the new company? Is it true that i can walk away without giving 3 month notice ?
Yes. I have jut gone though this process, resigned on 8th Feb with three months notice to work and the TUPE date was 24th Feb. I confirmed to the company that I was opting out of he TUPE process and my contract was terminated on 25th FebHappySilver said:
Your notice period still applies and technically you cannot opt out of a TUPE as it is the role that TUPEs the individual just goes with it. However, practically the new employer may not want the hassle of transferring you onto their payroll and enrolling you in benefits etc. if they know you are leaving. They may agree to let you go early or pay you in lieu of the post transfer notice. But only they can answer that.
Having received legal guidance I was told to opt out of TUPE. My letter to the company was exactly that, I wished to opt out of the TUPE process and would no longer be an employee. Perhaps they interpreted it differently but the phrasing I used was definitely opt out Steve Dyson said:
Thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate it.
I don't mind losing few holidays or other perks but main concern is with the new employer. I have read their employees review on glass door and they are not good. I had a discussion with people who have TUPED over to same company in the past and they told me the same thing that new employer will keep you for knowledge sharing and then dump you after that because they can find the cheap employees in India.
Also, i think it is better to leave sooner than later otherwise there will be a skill gap for me.
Allvotec/Daisy/Atos - any of those by any chance?I don't mind losing few holidays or other perks but main concern is with the new employer. I have read their employees review on glass door and they are not good. I had a discussion with people who have TUPED over to same company in the past and they told me the same thing that new employer will keep you for knowledge sharing and then dump you after that because they can find the cheap employees in India.
Also, i think it is better to leave sooner than later otherwise there will be a skill gap for me.
My experience across various TUPE's has been you collect things along the way, extra days for borthdays, extra days for house move, free medical cover etc.
Sometimes they might not have a scheme such as a bonus scheme so they will calulate what you used to get and factor that in as a monthly payment - whether that's standard or I've just been lucky I couldn't tell you though.
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