Furlough fraud - how much of this is going on?
Discussion
My sister worked at a dementia care home for a couple of years. The home was sold, and she didn't get on with the new owners. She found a new job, which she started just before Christmas.
Her first couple of monthly payslips with her new employer were fine, then she got paid a lot less. Her tax code dropped to zero, and she had several hundred pounds extra deducted. She queried this with her new employer, who said that was what HMRC had told them to do, but they would look into it for her.
The following month, her tax code was still zero, so she phoned HMRC herself. She was told it was because this was her second job - her code was being used elsewhere.
Eventually HMRC sent her some forms to fill out disputing this "second job", and this month she got her tax code back, and a big rebate for the last few months.
Apparently her previous employer had been claiming furlough for her, and pocketing the government money.
He was doing the same thing for 5 other ex-employees who had left over the past 6 months.
That's around £20k of fraudulent furlough claims from a small business with about 50 employees.
I wonder how widespread this is?
Hopefully he will do time for this.
Her first couple of monthly payslips with her new employer were fine, then she got paid a lot less. Her tax code dropped to zero, and she had several hundred pounds extra deducted. She queried this with her new employer, who said that was what HMRC had told them to do, but they would look into it for her.
The following month, her tax code was still zero, so she phoned HMRC herself. She was told it was because this was her second job - her code was being used elsewhere.
Eventually HMRC sent her some forms to fill out disputing this "second job", and this month she got her tax code back, and a big rebate for the last few months.
Apparently her previous employer had been claiming furlough for her, and pocketing the government money.
He was doing the same thing for 5 other ex-employees who had left over the past 6 months.
That's around £20k of fraudulent furlough claims from a small business with about 50 employees.
I wonder how widespread this is?
Hopefully he will do time for this.
clockworks said:
My sister worked at a dementia care home for a couple of years. The home was sold, and she didn't get on with the new owners. She found a new job, which she started just before Christmas.
Her first couple of monthly payslips with her new employer were fine, then she got paid a lot less. Her tax code dropped to zero, and she had several hundred pounds extra deducted. She queried this with her new employer, who said that was what HMRC had told them to do, but they would look into it for her.
The following month, her tax code was still zero, so she phoned HMRC herself. She was told it was because this was her second job - her code was being used elsewhere.
Eventually HMRC sent her some forms to fill out disputing this "second job", and this month she got her tax code back, and a big rebate for the last few months.
Apparently her previous employer had been claiming furlough for her, and pocketing the government money.
He was doing the same thing for 5 other ex-employees who had left over the past 6 months.
That's around £20k of fraudulent furlough claims from a small business with about 50 employees.
I wonder how widespread this is?
Hopefully he will do time for this.
I don’t know if this exists, but can suspected fraud be reported to HMRC somehow?Her first couple of monthly payslips with her new employer were fine, then she got paid a lot less. Her tax code dropped to zero, and she had several hundred pounds extra deducted. She queried this with her new employer, who said that was what HMRC had told them to do, but they would look into it for her.
The following month, her tax code was still zero, so she phoned HMRC herself. She was told it was because this was her second job - her code was being used elsewhere.
Eventually HMRC sent her some forms to fill out disputing this "second job", and this month she got her tax code back, and a big rebate for the last few months.
Apparently her previous employer had been claiming furlough for her, and pocketing the government money.
He was doing the same thing for 5 other ex-employees who had left over the past 6 months.
That's around £20k of fraudulent furlough claims from a small business with about 50 employees.
I wonder how widespread this is?
Hopefully he will do time for this.
That said, the government will be under some pressure to employ some of those thrown onto the job market as a result of a post-COVID-19 downtown and you wouldn't need to get through recovering many £5k+ frauds a month to make such jobs self-financing...not least as I'd imagine there'd also be a rather greater prospect of getting the money back than in most cases of defrauding the public purse.
I am surprised it is that easy to defraud the furlough scheme.
Would they not have had to claim she worked for them in Jan and Feb, this would not be the case if HMRC checks the RTI submissions?
As well as fraudulent (it is naive) and they could be seeing a courtroom soon (and rightly so).
Would they not have had to claim she worked for them in Jan and Feb, this would not be the case if HMRC checks the RTI submissions?
As well as fraudulent (it is naive) and they could be seeing a courtroom soon (and rightly so).
Wilmslowboy said:
I am surprised it is that easy to defraud the furlough scheme.
Would they not have had to claim she worked for them in Jan and Feb, this would not be the case if HMRC checks the RTI submissions?
As well as fraudulent (it is naive) and they could be seeing a courtroom soon (and rightly so).
I had to google what "RTI" is. I wonder how much slack there is in the real time system to back date the information supplied to HMRC? I guess it must to possible to make up some data for a couple of months, maybe by claiming that some employees were off sick, on holiday, working just a few hours a week, etc.Would they not have had to claim she worked for them in Jan and Feb, this would not be the case if HMRC checks the RTI submissions?
As well as fraudulent (it is naive) and they could be seeing a courtroom soon (and rightly so).
It does seem a bit odd that he thought he would get away with it. I'm pretty sure most people would start asking questions if their pay packets were hundreds of pounds light for month after month.
The Spruce Goose said:
300 billion in free money lets say 5% is Fraud, that's 15 billion, massive numbers but when you quickly cobble something together to keep people happy who really cares, it free money.
The numbers are ridiculous really they won't have the resources to even investigate any of this.
That is my concern, these scum will get away with it. The numbers are ridiculous really they won't have the resources to even investigate any of this.
Of friends that have been furloughed, I would estimate more than half have been asked to work ‘voluntarily’ to at least 50% of their usual capacity. Totally abused scheme.
Wilmslowboy said:
I am surprised it is that easy to defraud the furlough scheme.
Would they not have had to claim she worked for them in Jan and Feb, this would not be the case if HMRC checks the RTI submissions?
As well as fraudulent (it is naive) and they could be seeing a courtroom soon (and rightly so).
I think that's why the announcement of the scheme was timed so RTI submissions *should* have already been in (i.e. announcing scheme end of March for anyone employed up to end of Feb, as the bulk of Feb RTI submissions should have been in by the time the scheme was announced). So for most it probably wouldn't be worth the risk/reward to put in fake claims, however, some might have decided to chance their arm. Especially when the window was moved forward a month.Would they not have had to claim she worked for them in Jan and Feb, this would not be the case if HMRC checks the RTI submissions?
As well as fraudulent (it is naive) and they could be seeing a courtroom soon (and rightly so).
clockworks said:
Wilmslowboy said:
I am surprised it is that easy to defraud the furlough scheme.
Would they not have had to claim she worked for them in Jan and Feb, this would not be the case if HMRC checks the RTI submissions?
As well as fraudulent (it is naive) and they could be seeing a courtroom soon (and rightly so).
I had to google what "RTI" is. I wonder how much slack there is in the real time system to back date the information supplied to HMRC? I guess it must to possible to make up some data for a couple of months, maybe by claiming that some employees were off sick, on holiday, working just a few hours a week, etc.Would they not have had to claim she worked for them in Jan and Feb, this would not be the case if HMRC checks the RTI submissions?
As well as fraudulent (it is naive) and they could be seeing a courtroom soon (and rightly so).
It does seem a bit odd that he thought he would get away with it. I'm pretty sure most people would start asking questions if their pay packets were hundreds of pounds light for month after month.
You submit you weekly / monthly PAYE info for each period and submit (and lock) that period before a set end date.
You can’t without giving good reasons re-submit a pay period. Any dodgy resubmission such as suddenly including ‘new’ employees would generate big red flags.
Any employee on sick or reduced hours would already have been included on previous submissions anyway.
The fraud discussed in this case seems so clumbsy, it’s verging on the ridiculous. As the OP described, the employees tax code immediately changed to accommodate the new tax position and that raised her concerns. It could only end one way. Some people are stupid or greedy, usually both.
Edited by Ham_and_Jam on Sunday 31st May 10:51
Shnozz said:
That is my concern, these scum will get away with it.
Of friends that have been furloughed, I would estimate more than half have been asked to work ‘voluntarily’ to at least 50% of their usual capacity. Totally abused scheme.
I have a mate who is furloughed but still doing some work, I do have some sympathy though as there wouldn't be a job to go back to if he didn't. Of friends that have been furloughed, I would estimate more than half have been asked to work ‘voluntarily’ to at least 50% of their usual capacity. Totally abused scheme.
They will have plenty of time to do the checks retrospectively (at least for companies that fraudulently claimed).
For now its just the equivalent of helicopter money.
For now its just the equivalent of helicopter money.
rlw said:
RTI may be Real Time Information but it depends upon an army of people sitting at desks looking at stuff so some things take forever.
I've submitted furlough claims for my firm and for one of my clients and I'm amazed at both how simple and how open to a little light fraud it is.
I've submitted furlough claims for my firm and for one of my clients and I'm amazed at both how simple and how open to a little light fraud it is.
Wilmslowboy said:
For now its just the equivalent of helicopter money.
rlw said:
RTI may be Real Time Information but it depends upon an army of people sitting at desks looking at stuff so some things take forever.
I've submitted furlough claims for my firm and for one of my clients and I'm amazed at both how simple and how open to a little light fraud it is.
In a way it exactly no different to submitting your earnings using self assessment.I've submitted furlough claims for my firm and for one of my clients and I'm amazed at both how simple and how open to a little light fraud it is.
It’s very easy to declare your earnings at a much lower level than you’ve actually earned and pay much less tax.
It’s also very easy for HMRC to check and clobber you with the appropriate fines and ask you to pay the proper amount. That’s why most sensible and honest people don’t abuse it.
Spidersleg said:
As with benefit frauds, there will be a monetary figure where they won't bother to investigate. A family member works on the helpline for benefits and says that anything under (for example) £5000 they won't bother to pursue it.
Well that's alright then, at least I'm not paying for it...…..Hold on.Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff