Being made redundant & training your replacement
Discussion
Hi, the end of a crappy week at work,
We work approx 1 week a month in France, occasionally Holland too, the rest of the time in the UK
I’ve been told my team and I are all being made redundant, to be replaced with a European doppelgänger team. They want the same number of people, with the same roles, much lower salaries, but need to be European passport holders - and I’m being expected to train them all so they can take over from us in a few months.
I was under the impression they can’t make people redundant - only roles, and the roles are still there, the work’s still there with exactly the same customer base, and I can work 12 weeks a year in Europe as I understand it even as a British passport holder.
It feels like an underhand excuse to simply lower salaries by replacing British workers with foreign. Is there any law or process I could bring up with HR to help us?
I guess even with Brexit, they’ll be allowed to work over here when necessary - any idea if they’ll have the same 90 in 180 day limit applied like would be applied to us?
We work approx 1 week a month in France, occasionally Holland too, the rest of the time in the UK
I’ve been told my team and I are all being made redundant, to be replaced with a European doppelgänger team. They want the same number of people, with the same roles, much lower salaries, but need to be European passport holders - and I’m being expected to train them all so they can take over from us in a few months.
I was under the impression they can’t make people redundant - only roles, and the roles are still there, the work’s still there with exactly the same customer base, and I can work 12 weeks a year in Europe as I understand it even as a British passport holder.
It feels like an underhand excuse to simply lower salaries by replacing British workers with foreign. Is there any law or process I could bring up with HR to help us?
I guess even with Brexit, they’ll be allowed to work over here when necessary - any idea if they’ll have the same 90 in 180 day limit applied like would be applied to us?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I’m not assuming. That’s the contracts they’re on, I’ve seen it with my own eyes. No assumptions. Maybe “significantly lower salaries” - maybe that’s been done to make the overall cost of having that employee the same as us. However, if they’re not saving money, if they’re not doing it to reduce their costs and they’re purely doing it as a punitive act towards UK employees, that too doesn’t make me want to train my replacement.
Thanks for being helpful and constructive chickenfeed, Always nice to see someone helping a fellow man.
Edited by UnluckyJoe on Saturday 30th January 08:19
Edited by UnluckyJoe on Saturday 30th January 08:21
How can your position be made redundant if the tasks you carried out still needs to be carried out?
The whole law behind "Redundancy" is that your position is no longer required.
The idea of a person being told they have been made "Redundant" and then being tasked with training their "replacement" seems to me a matter that an employment tribunal might like to have a look at.
The whole law behind "Redundancy" is that your position is no longer required.
The idea of a person being told they have been made "Redundant" and then being tasked with training their "replacement" seems to me a matter that an employment tribunal might like to have a look at.
Eric Mc said:
How can your position be made redundant if the tasks you carried out still needs to be carried out?
The whole law behind "Redundancy" is that your position is no longer required.
The idea of a person being told they have been made "Redundant" and then being tasked with training their "replacement" seems to me a matter that an employment tribunal might like to have a look at.
They are moving to a different country, so they can do that. I'm not sure how helpful I would want to be with the training though. The whole law behind "Redundancy" is that your position is no longer required.
The idea of a person being told they have been made "Redundant" and then being tasked with training their "replacement" seems to me a matter that an employment tribunal might like to have a look at.
RE: Training. Do you currently carry out in your role? If so, then reasonable to expect you to conduct for incomers. If not - you can declare that you are not competent/sufficiently-trained to be able to carry out, assess and pass new people.......really depends on how you feel over this and how much "noise" you would like to make.
Chances are that your contract will contain a section/paragraph along the lines of "any reasonable request". Should you refuse - suspect it will not impact you financially given redundancy afoot.
Wish you well in any new career path.
Chances are that your contract will contain a section/paragraph along the lines of "any reasonable request". Should you refuse - suspect it will not impact you financially given redundancy afoot.
Wish you well in any new career path.
I’m in a similar situation.
I work for a French company who manufacture equipment for anything to do with maintaining rail track. From small rail saws costing a couple of hundred pounds to multi-million pound machines to lay sections of track. The factory I work in develop and prototype build measuring equipment. My personal area (department of one!) is Non-destructive equipment to inspect rails for defects.
Our factory all received an email through yesterday morning from a manager in the main French factory saying that they are carrying out an audit of our department and wanted to know everyone’s normal duties, what qualifications we have, what training and experience was needed for the job, what software packages we use and what specialist equipment is required.
I called the MD of our main UK factory and expressed my fears that we were being closed down. His response was that the guys in the measuring department may have a problem! He then said that he could not officially tell me what is happening to me, and that he does not want to lie to me! (He was the one who actually got me into the job 12 1/2 years ago.
Outlook doesn’t look too good!
I work for a French company who manufacture equipment for anything to do with maintaining rail track. From small rail saws costing a couple of hundred pounds to multi-million pound machines to lay sections of track. The factory I work in develop and prototype build measuring equipment. My personal area (department of one!) is Non-destructive equipment to inspect rails for defects.
Our factory all received an email through yesterday morning from a manager in the main French factory saying that they are carrying out an audit of our department and wanted to know everyone’s normal duties, what qualifications we have, what training and experience was needed for the job, what software packages we use and what specialist equipment is required.
I called the MD of our main UK factory and expressed my fears that we were being closed down. His response was that the guys in the measuring department may have a problem! He then said that he could not officially tell me what is happening to me, and that he does not want to lie to me! (He was the one who actually got me into the job 12 1/2 years ago.
Outlook doesn’t look too good!
OP, sorry for your situation. Even without Brexit I could see that a team physically located within the Schengen area may be a sensible business move, and now with Covid travel restrictions likely to go on for some time then that would support that as well.
Part of your response could be dictated by how fast you can find another role. Just because they tell you your role is redundant doesn't mean you have to stay. You'll give up any redundancy payment but can leave for another job at any time, so then they will lose your expertise before they can hire.
I'm thinking that if they try to hire in France now, it would take (say) 4-6 weeks to find candidates, conduct a couple of rounds of interview, and then have them serve notice periods at their current workplace - so that would be 2-3 months before they're on board. Then, will they be able to travel to the UK for training, or you to France? I can't see that happening for a long time given the EU vaccine rollout, so perhaps September. Then a 2 month training? So I'd guesstimate you'd be safe until November. Plenty of time to find another job I hope!
Good luck whatever you do
Part of your response could be dictated by how fast you can find another role. Just because they tell you your role is redundant doesn't mean you have to stay. You'll give up any redundancy payment but can leave for another job at any time, so then they will lose your expertise before they can hire.
I'm thinking that if they try to hire in France now, it would take (say) 4-6 weeks to find candidates, conduct a couple of rounds of interview, and then have them serve notice periods at their current workplace - so that would be 2-3 months before they're on board. Then, will they be able to travel to the UK for training, or you to France? I can't see that happening for a long time given the EU vaccine rollout, so perhaps September. Then a 2 month training? So I'd guesstimate you'd be safe until November. Plenty of time to find another job I hope!
Good luck whatever you do
CaptainSlow said:
Landcrab_Six said:
If they're off-shoring, I'm sure that's within the redundancy rules. One of my colleagues just lost his job in the same way.
Welcome to Brexit Britain. 'Nobody told me this would happen.'
You realise off-shoring has been going on for the last 20 years?Welcome to Brexit Britain. 'Nobody told me this would happen.'
Burrow01 said:
CaptainSlow said:
Landcrab_Six said:
If they're off-shoring, I'm sure that's within the redundancy rules. One of my colleagues just lost his job in the same way.
Welcome to Brexit Britain. 'Nobody told me this would happen.'
You realise off-shoring has been going on for the last 20 years?Welcome to Brexit Britain. 'Nobody told me this would happen.'
UnluckyJoe said:
Hi, the end of a crappy week at work,
We work approx 1 week a month in France, occasionally Holland too, the rest of the time in the UK
I was under the impression they can’t make people redundant - only roles, and the roles are still there, the work’s still there with exactly the same customer base, and I can work 12 weeks a year in Europe as I understand it even as a British passport holder.
I guess even with Brexit, they’ll be allowed to work over here when necessary - any idea if they’ll have the same 90 in 180 day limit applied like would be applied to us?
Depending on the actual activity, you may now need a work permit to travel to an EU country, not sure on Netherlands and France, but certainly for Denmark you need a visa.We work approx 1 week a month in France, occasionally Holland too, the rest of the time in the UK
I was under the impression they can’t make people redundant - only roles, and the roles are still there, the work’s still there with exactly the same customer base, and I can work 12 weeks a year in Europe as I understand it even as a British passport holder.
I guess even with Brexit, they’ll be allowed to work over here when necessary - any idea if they’ll have the same 90 in 180 day limit applied like would be applied to us?
EU citizens can come to the UK for up to six months a year
CaptainSlow said:
Burrow01 said:
CaptainSlow said:
Landcrab_Six said:
If they're off-shoring, I'm sure that's within the redundancy rules. One of my colleagues just lost his job in the same way.
Welcome to Brexit Britain. 'Nobody told me this would happen.'
You realise off-shoring has been going on for the last 20 years?Welcome to Brexit Britain. 'Nobody told me this would happen.'
Eric Mc said:
How can your position be made redundant if the tasks you carried out still needs to be carried out?
The whole law behind "Redundancy" is that your position is no longer required.
The idea of a person being told they have been made "Redundant" and then being tasked with training their "replacement" seems to me a matter that an employment tribunal might like to have a look at.
Because the OP's role is based in the UK (albeit mobile) and the new roles are not based in the UK.The whole law behind "Redundancy" is that your position is no longer required.
The idea of a person being told they have been made "Redundant" and then being tasked with training their "replacement" seems to me a matter that an employment tribunal might like to have a look at.
What is the size of the team and how many people are affected?
There is a requirement to carry out some form of consultation, the length of which is partly dependent on the number affected.
While the company may just pay lip service to consultation, it's your chance to raise points / ask questions along the lines of "why can't we carry out this role from the UK?"
I would also be asking about enhanced redundancy terms, including some form of retention bonus for successfully training the new team.
There is a requirement to carry out some form of consultation, the length of which is partly dependent on the number affected.
While the company may just pay lip service to consultation, it's your chance to raise points / ask questions along the lines of "why can't we carry out this role from the UK?"
I would also be asking about enhanced redundancy terms, including some form of retention bonus for successfully training the new team.
This happened to me & my team at BT 20 years ago. As the team was largely made up of contractors, we treated the process with the respect and seriousness that you would absolutely expect it to deserve.
It was brilliant. In the pub for opening time every day and billed the full month
(I realise this isn't sensitive or useful. I just like telling the story).
It was brilliant. In the pub for opening time every day and billed the full month
(I realise this isn't sensitive or useful. I just like telling the story).
UnluckyJoe said:
Hi, the end of a crappy week at work,
We work approx 1 week a month in France, occasionally Holland too, the rest of the time in the UK
I’ve been told my team and I are all being made redundant, to be replaced with a European doppelgänger team. They want the same number of people, with the same roles, much lower salaries, but need to be European passport holders - and I’m being expected to train them all so they can take over from us in a few months.
I was under the impression they can’t make people redundant - only roles, and the roles are still there, the work’s still there with exactly the same customer base, and I can work 12 weeks a year in Europe as I understand it even as a British passport holder.
It feels like an underhand excuse to simply lower salaries by replacing British workers with foreign. Is there any law or process I could bring up with HR to help us?
I guess even with Brexit, they’ll be allowed to work over here when necessary - any idea if they’ll have the same 90 in 180 day limit applied like would be applied to us?
Sorry to hear your news - sadly this has been going on for a while - I work in IT services and the common plan is usually the account you are working on is costed for onshore resources for the first couple of years and then moves offshore for remainder of contract - (in this case it is due to cost savings) the majority of UK resources would then be made redundant - - Doing a handover to these new resources is normal practice and is fine however having to train them should not be in your remit (unless that is your current role) - We work approx 1 week a month in France, occasionally Holland too, the rest of the time in the UK
I’ve been told my team and I are all being made redundant, to be replaced with a European doppelgänger team. They want the same number of people, with the same roles, much lower salaries, but need to be European passport holders - and I’m being expected to train them all so they can take over from us in a few months.
I was under the impression they can’t make people redundant - only roles, and the roles are still there, the work’s still there with exactly the same customer base, and I can work 12 weeks a year in Europe as I understand it even as a British passport holder.
It feels like an underhand excuse to simply lower salaries by replacing British workers with foreign. Is there any law or process I could bring up with HR to help us?
I guess even with Brexit, they’ll be allowed to work over here when necessary - any idea if they’ll have the same 90 in 180 day limit applied like would be applied to us?
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