The jobseeking, interviewing and recruitment thread
Discussion
After taking the "suit and tie" thread way, way off topic, I thought we should have a thread on our experiences of finding a new job.
For some, it's a really tough time at the moment. I was made redundant last summer, and decided to take a few months away from work focusing on kids homeschooling and entertaining, and overseeing a new extension on the house. I've never had trouble finding work in the past, and was confident of landing something fairly quickly.
So I ramped up jobseeking activities in the Autumn and it wasn't quite as easy as I thought it would be. I have found the job market very different this time round compared to even three years ago when I was last looking.
This is what I'm finding:
A) There is a huge amount of candidates and competition for places - understandably with a lot of redundancies and job losses due to COVID and to some extent Brexit
B) A lot of companies are ditching recruitment agencies, building up internal recruitment teams , using purpose built candidate software, and going direct to market...
C) ...mostly (in my industry anyway - IT) ending up on LinkedIn which has become a huge player in the recruitment process (which is good and bad I reckon)
D) I also suspect that in many industries, this Covid/Brexit crisis is driving a correction down in salaries.
The result of the above has meant my jobseeking experience over the last few months has been pretty terrible. It seems to me that the "digital revolution" in recruiting that allows companies to take control of the process, instead of paying recruitment agencies to do the work for them is not really firing on all cylinders. Companies are investing large sums in buying in Candidate Tracking Systems to automate the recruiting and onboarding process that may well help sift the hundreds of applicants received, but if not implemented correctly, leave a terrible, robotic experience for us candidates. I truly feel that companies are doing themselves huge disservices making things difficult at the recruitment front door, as jobseekers are as much potential customers, colleagues, suppliers and opinion formers.
And then if you are lucky enough to get through vetting and get to interview stage, you are treated to unreasonable demands, zero feedback from unsuccessful interviews, and downright ghosting after you have just spent several hours discussing the finer details of your life with strangers.
I am finding that however much we may have liked to moan about recruitment agents, For me, they really did their job chasing on behalf of you if you were in line for a role they had on their books. Many companies I deal with now and try to apply for are via automated email addresses, or to internal recruiters who are flooded with work and can't/won't respond to even the simplest of queries. I have ended up becoming internet sleuth and tracking down individuals online to try and get some human contact, which has worked on occasion but it's not an ideal approach.
One issue I have right now, is that companies are very reluctant to publishing salary ranges in a job advert, but they are also happy to overblow job descriptions and job titles. It's sometimes not clear on the seniority or complexity of a role until you speak to the actual hiring manager and understand the detail. Publishing a salary at least puts you in a ballpark.
I recently got through to a second round of interviews, and in this instance had not discussed salaries for some reason (I make it one of my first things now!). All seemed good, then I had a panicked call from the internal recruiter asking me what I was expecting. I told her and she went quiet, saying that their budget was way way lower than that.
So, a little peeved having bothered to apply and go through first round of interviews, I said let's leave it there. I then was chased by the hiring manager saying she would be flexible (I'm happy to meet in the middle if the role is challenging and has opportunites) and she was keen to have me, so we went through the interview which went very well, then because I was by that stage an unusual case, got wheeled out in front of the department VP. Result was I didn't get the job, feedback: I was too senior for the role. We'd establised that a couple of weeks before!
So I'm very happy to share any advice I may have and hear from people about CVs, how best to use LinkedIn, how to stand out in a crowded market, how to present yourself at interviews and so on. Plus any horror stories too!
For some, it's a really tough time at the moment. I was made redundant last summer, and decided to take a few months away from work focusing on kids homeschooling and entertaining, and overseeing a new extension on the house. I've never had trouble finding work in the past, and was confident of landing something fairly quickly.
So I ramped up jobseeking activities in the Autumn and it wasn't quite as easy as I thought it would be. I have found the job market very different this time round compared to even three years ago when I was last looking.
This is what I'm finding:
A) There is a huge amount of candidates and competition for places - understandably with a lot of redundancies and job losses due to COVID and to some extent Brexit
B) A lot of companies are ditching recruitment agencies, building up internal recruitment teams , using purpose built candidate software, and going direct to market...
C) ...mostly (in my industry anyway - IT) ending up on LinkedIn which has become a huge player in the recruitment process (which is good and bad I reckon)
D) I also suspect that in many industries, this Covid/Brexit crisis is driving a correction down in salaries.
The result of the above has meant my jobseeking experience over the last few months has been pretty terrible. It seems to me that the "digital revolution" in recruiting that allows companies to take control of the process, instead of paying recruitment agencies to do the work for them is not really firing on all cylinders. Companies are investing large sums in buying in Candidate Tracking Systems to automate the recruiting and onboarding process that may well help sift the hundreds of applicants received, but if not implemented correctly, leave a terrible, robotic experience for us candidates. I truly feel that companies are doing themselves huge disservices making things difficult at the recruitment front door, as jobseekers are as much potential customers, colleagues, suppliers and opinion formers.
And then if you are lucky enough to get through vetting and get to interview stage, you are treated to unreasonable demands, zero feedback from unsuccessful interviews, and downright ghosting after you have just spent several hours discussing the finer details of your life with strangers.
I am finding that however much we may have liked to moan about recruitment agents, For me, they really did their job chasing on behalf of you if you were in line for a role they had on their books. Many companies I deal with now and try to apply for are via automated email addresses, or to internal recruiters who are flooded with work and can't/won't respond to even the simplest of queries. I have ended up becoming internet sleuth and tracking down individuals online to try and get some human contact, which has worked on occasion but it's not an ideal approach.
One issue I have right now, is that companies are very reluctant to publishing salary ranges in a job advert, but they are also happy to overblow job descriptions and job titles. It's sometimes not clear on the seniority or complexity of a role until you speak to the actual hiring manager and understand the detail. Publishing a salary at least puts you in a ballpark.
I recently got through to a second round of interviews, and in this instance had not discussed salaries for some reason (I make it one of my first things now!). All seemed good, then I had a panicked call from the internal recruiter asking me what I was expecting. I told her and she went quiet, saying that their budget was way way lower than that.
So, a little peeved having bothered to apply and go through first round of interviews, I said let's leave it there. I then was chased by the hiring manager saying she would be flexible (I'm happy to meet in the middle if the role is challenging and has opportunites) and she was keen to have me, so we went through the interview which went very well, then because I was by that stage an unusual case, got wheeled out in front of the department VP. Result was I didn't get the job, feedback: I was too senior for the role. We'd establised that a couple of weeks before!
So I'm very happy to share any advice I may have and hear from people about CVs, how best to use LinkedIn, how to stand out in a crowded market, how to present yourself at interviews and so on. Plus any horror stories too!
Almost exact same situation here in the same industry. No real tips other than sounds like you're doing a similar approach to what I am, a mix of applying through the usual agencies and 'talent acquisition' bods, through to reaching out direct to key people and business owners.
Chin up, and just keep thinking, it just takes the right message, to the right person, at the right time, and it'll work out.
Happy to help keep my eyes and ears to the ground on your behalf if you have a specific skill or location, but you've probably heard this 'promise' countless times already.
Chin up, and just keep thinking, it just takes the right message, to the right person, at the right time, and it'll work out.
Happy to help keep my eyes and ears to the ground on your behalf if you have a specific skill or location, but you've probably heard this 'promise' countless times already.
Reading the OP makes me feel quite guilty.
I'm 58 and have decided to retire early. I go at the end of April. Since I started letting people know, I've had 2 job offers already, and I'm only about 10% of the way thru telling people.
Folk out there are struggling for work, including a few friends of mine, and I'm getting job offers and I don't want to work!!!
That's life I guess, like only being able to afford a fanny magnet sports car when you're too old an decrepit to take advantage of it. You never get what you want when you need it, but always get what you wanted when you know longer need it.
I'm 58 and have decided to retire early. I go at the end of April. Since I started letting people know, I've had 2 job offers already, and I'm only about 10% of the way thru telling people.
Folk out there are struggling for work, including a few friends of mine, and I'm getting job offers and I don't want to work!!!
That's life I guess, like only being able to afford a fanny magnet sports car when you're too old an decrepit to take advantage of it. You never get what you want when you need it, but always get what you wanted when you know longer need it.
I wouldn't feel guilty Twig - we're all at different stages of life and have different experience and skills. I'm in the good position of having a decent redundancy package, COVID lockdowns has meant I've naturally spent a lot less than normal. The new extension was already paid for, so home is a comfortable place to be and MRS P is working so we're not in any way starving. I just need one of the opportunities I'm chasing to come off and life will settle down again.
The uncertainty is a pain to live with though, as I spend most of every morning searching, applying and researching roles and living through the rollercoaster of anticipation, elation through to disappointment. Plus the mental effort in interviewing and selling yourself is considerable. Last month could be seen as a success - I managed to secure interviews for 5 different roles, including the marathon process of being interviewed for the Amazon role (detailed on the Shirt & Tie thread). I progressed well in them all, but ultimately came away with nothing. So I'm going to close the laptop and take a couple of days off to take stock, get on the bike, walk the dog and come back at it with a fresh pair of eyes.
I need to think what has been missing in my recent interviews though. Past history for me says I usually have a 2:1 hit rate on getting an offer when I reach interview stage. This month it was been 5:0, which is disappointing and unusual. I'm hoping that for the next interviews I manage to secure I will be able to use the well prepared examples I pulled together for the Amazon interviews, which, although perhaps weren't high enough standard for Amazon, I am sure will give me some good structure and confidence in my responses to impress (Using the STAR - Situation, Task, Action, Result format).
The uncertainty is a pain to live with though, as I spend most of every morning searching, applying and researching roles and living through the rollercoaster of anticipation, elation through to disappointment. Plus the mental effort in interviewing and selling yourself is considerable. Last month could be seen as a success - I managed to secure interviews for 5 different roles, including the marathon process of being interviewed for the Amazon role (detailed on the Shirt & Tie thread). I progressed well in them all, but ultimately came away with nothing. So I'm going to close the laptop and take a couple of days off to take stock, get on the bike, walk the dog and come back at it with a fresh pair of eyes.
I need to think what has been missing in my recent interviews though. Past history for me says I usually have a 2:1 hit rate on getting an offer when I reach interview stage. This month it was been 5:0, which is disappointing and unusual. I'm hoping that for the next interviews I manage to secure I will be able to use the well prepared examples I pulled together for the Amazon interviews, which, although perhaps weren't high enough standard for Amazon, I am sure will give me some good structure and confidence in my responses to impress (Using the STAR - Situation, Task, Action, Result format).
Edited by prand on Wednesday 17th March 16:11
Just some reflections on interviews.
It’s a large agenda, so can’t cover it all in a single post, but thought a couple of things might aid some folk.
Interviews are much like actors going to castings. Great actors get turned down because they’re just not the right thing that the Director is looking for. They’re still great actors, but just not the right fit for that role. Job interviews are exactly the same, so don’t be discouraged by the failures.
One way of improving your chances is to do your due diligence once shortlisted. This includes meeting the hiring manager. There you are trying to find out more about the role and it’s key outputs and working out if you can indeed deliver the ask as well as seeing if you’re going to be able to work with your new boss. Use this opportunity to really improve your chance of success if you really do want the job. Build a rapport with the hiring manager and try to gain an advantage over the other candidates. Conversely, you may come away thinking that the job is not quite what you were looking for or you feel you may not get on so well with your potential new boss or you might pick up some messaging that the hiring manager has not warmed to you.
With all of that intelligence, you should have a much better idea of how successful you might be at interview and thus be in more control of the process.
It’s a large agenda, so can’t cover it all in a single post, but thought a couple of things might aid some folk.
Interviews are much like actors going to castings. Great actors get turned down because they’re just not the right thing that the Director is looking for. They’re still great actors, but just not the right fit for that role. Job interviews are exactly the same, so don’t be discouraged by the failures.
One way of improving your chances is to do your due diligence once shortlisted. This includes meeting the hiring manager. There you are trying to find out more about the role and it’s key outputs and working out if you can indeed deliver the ask as well as seeing if you’re going to be able to work with your new boss. Use this opportunity to really improve your chance of success if you really do want the job. Build a rapport with the hiring manager and try to gain an advantage over the other candidates. Conversely, you may come away thinking that the job is not quite what you were looking for or you feel you may not get on so well with your potential new boss or you might pick up some messaging that the hiring manager has not warmed to you.
With all of that intelligence, you should have a much better idea of how successful you might be at interview and thus be in more control of the process.
You're right about increased competition and reduced opportunities at this time. I think the trick is to be broader in the types of roles you consider, even going to a different industry type, even to get the foot in the door and work up again.
I returned to the job market a couple of years ago and in the intervening 2 years, agencies and hiring companies alike have been vague about salary and responsibilities. From personal experience I'd rather talk directly with the company than have the messages diluted in either direction by a middle-person with their own agenda. I say that as someone who worked in shared services in a leading recruitment agency.
I returned to the job market a couple of years ago and in the intervening 2 years, agencies and hiring companies alike have been vague about salary and responsibilities. From personal experience I'd rather talk directly with the company than have the messages diluted in either direction by a middle-person with their own agenda. I say that as someone who worked in shared services in a leading recruitment agency.
rog007 said:
Just some reflections on interviews.
It’s a large agenda, so can’t cover it all in a single post, but thought a couple of things might aid some folk.
Interviews are much like actors going to castings. Great actors get turned down because they’re just not the right thing that the Director is looking for. They’re still great actors, but just not the right fit for that role. Job interviews are exactly the same, so don’t be discouraged by the failures.
One way of improving your chances is to do your due diligence once shortlisted. This includes meeting the hiring manager. There you are trying to find out more about the role and it’s key outputs and working out if you can indeed deliver the ask as well as seeing if you’re going to be able to work with your new boss. Use this opportunity to really improve your chance of success if you really do want the job. Build a rapport with the hiring manager and try to gain an advantage over the other candidates. Conversely, you may come away thinking that the job is not quite what you were looking for or you feel you may not get on so well with your potential new boss or you might pick up some messaging that the hiring manager has not warmed to you.
With all of that intelligence, you should have a much better idea of how successful you might be at interview and thus be in more control of the process.
Great advice. Agree with it all.It’s a large agenda, so can’t cover it all in a single post, but thought a couple of things might aid some folk.
Interviews are much like actors going to castings. Great actors get turned down because they’re just not the right thing that the Director is looking for. They’re still great actors, but just not the right fit for that role. Job interviews are exactly the same, so don’t be discouraged by the failures.
One way of improving your chances is to do your due diligence once shortlisted. This includes meeting the hiring manager. There you are trying to find out more about the role and it’s key outputs and working out if you can indeed deliver the ask as well as seeing if you’re going to be able to work with your new boss. Use this opportunity to really improve your chance of success if you really do want the job. Build a rapport with the hiring manager and try to gain an advantage over the other candidates. Conversely, you may come away thinking that the job is not quite what you were looking for or you feel you may not get on so well with your potential new boss or you might pick up some messaging that the hiring manager has not warmed to you.
With all of that intelligence, you should have a much better idea of how successful you might be at interview and thus be in more control of the process.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Reading the OP makes me feel quite guilty.
I'm 58 and have decided to retire early. I go at the end of April. Since I started letting people know, I've had 2 job offers already, and I'm only about 10% of the way thru telling people.
Folk out there are struggling for work, including a few friends of mine, and I'm getting job offers and I don't want to work!!!
That's life I guess, like only being able to afford a fanny magnet sports car when you're too old an decrepit to take advantage of it. You never get what you want when you need it, but always get what you wanted when you know longer need it.
Out of interest, are they offering you project/contract work or part/full time employment? I'm 58 and have decided to retire early. I go at the end of April. Since I started letting people know, I've had 2 job offers already, and I'm only about 10% of the way thru telling people.
Folk out there are struggling for work, including a few friends of mine, and I'm getting job offers and I don't want to work!!!
That's life I guess, like only being able to afford a fanny magnet sports car when you're too old an decrepit to take advantage of it. You never get what you want when you need it, but always get what you wanted when you know longer need it.
Not me, but my partner is really struggling now. He did a masters in HR, so it’s very qualified but struggling to get even a entry level position because of “experience”
All these companies say they want “Experience” but it’s so stupid, just because you’ve been doing a job for years doesn’t mean you’re actually any good at it, nor does it mean you can just walk into another company which will have different systems and processes to the last so it’s just a cop out way of saying we can’t be arsed to train you.
As HR is female dominated so many of them are fix term 6/9 month contracts too, he recently interviewed for one with Deloitte which he actually got to then be told after a 5 week 5 stage application process including, cv, testing, reasoning, face to face and a group interview that the role was actually 6 months from when it was advertised and at the end of that they where making the whole team redundant?
Now I get that 4 stages might be common for a high level job but these are all admin jobs paying minimum wage, I can’t help but think companies are getting above their station.
He’s now got 6 months expeirnace in what is literally just a job where he checks a spread sheet for data on someone’s pension and emails them back but now is getting in loads of HR admin interviews which are in no way related to the job he’s doing
It’s bizzare.
All these companies say they want “Experience” but it’s so stupid, just because you’ve been doing a job for years doesn’t mean you’re actually any good at it, nor does it mean you can just walk into another company which will have different systems and processes to the last so it’s just a cop out way of saying we can’t be arsed to train you.
As HR is female dominated so many of them are fix term 6/9 month contracts too, he recently interviewed for one with Deloitte which he actually got to then be told after a 5 week 5 stage application process including, cv, testing, reasoning, face to face and a group interview that the role was actually 6 months from when it was advertised and at the end of that they where making the whole team redundant?
Now I get that 4 stages might be common for a high level job but these are all admin jobs paying minimum wage, I can’t help but think companies are getting above their station.
He’s now got 6 months expeirnace in what is literally just a job where he checks a spread sheet for data on someone’s pension and emails them back but now is getting in loads of HR admin interviews which are in no way related to the job he’s doing
It’s bizzare.
My contract is up at the end of June and I’m not relishing returning to the job market at the moment.
I think people expecting a mutually respectful job hunting experience with candidates being kept informed and getting feedback so they can get “closure” are a bit out of touch.
My take on it is this:
Apply for a job. Tweak your CV to hit as many key words in the advert as you can so it doesn’t get filtered out immediately by the automated system.
Then forgot about it. Put the application out of your mind. Apply for something else.
If you get an interview the first stage will probably be 30 minutes on the phone with them getting a feel for you.
There’s the essentials to consider that any powerfully built PH type would do like make sure you find somewhere quiet to go with good phone reception. They’ll ask about yourself so have an “elevator pitch” giving a brief précis of your job history, qualifications, skills and what you are looking for so why you want this job. Do your research on the company so you have some intelligent sounding questions to ask the person on the other end of the phone.
Then forget about it. Put the interview out of your mind and apply for something else.
If you get a second interview, which should be face to face but will probably be remote at the moment, do the usual like look smart etc etc.
Then forget about it. Go and apply for something else.
Etc
Companies rarely give feedback and recruitment consultants are your best mate when you are a candidate but as soon as you are unsuccessful they won’t want to know as you are a waste of their time when they could be looking for the next candidate. Failed interviewees don’t pay commission.
I think people expecting a mutually respectful job hunting experience with candidates being kept informed and getting feedback so they can get “closure” are a bit out of touch.
My take on it is this:
Apply for a job. Tweak your CV to hit as many key words in the advert as you can so it doesn’t get filtered out immediately by the automated system.
Then forgot about it. Put the application out of your mind. Apply for something else.
If you get an interview the first stage will probably be 30 minutes on the phone with them getting a feel for you.
There’s the essentials to consider that any powerfully built PH type would do like make sure you find somewhere quiet to go with good phone reception. They’ll ask about yourself so have an “elevator pitch” giving a brief précis of your job history, qualifications, skills and what you are looking for so why you want this job. Do your research on the company so you have some intelligent sounding questions to ask the person on the other end of the phone.
Then forget about it. Put the interview out of your mind and apply for something else.
If you get a second interview, which should be face to face but will probably be remote at the moment, do the usual like look smart etc etc.
Then forget about it. Go and apply for something else.
Etc
Companies rarely give feedback and recruitment consultants are your best mate when you are a candidate but as soon as you are unsuccessful they won’t want to know as you are a waste of their time when they could be looking for the next candidate. Failed interviewees don’t pay commission.
Roaringopenfire said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Reading the OP makes me feel quite guilty.
I'm 58 and have decided to retire early. I go at the end of April. Since I started letting people know, I've had 2 job offers already, and I'm only about 10% of the way thru telling people.
Folk out there are struggling for work, including a few friends of mine, and I'm getting job offers and I don't want to work!!!
That's life I guess, like only being able to afford a fanny magnet sports car when you're too old an decrepit to take advantage of it. You never get what you want when you need it, but always get what you wanted when you know longer need it.
Out of interest, are they offering you project/contract work or part/full time employment? I'm 58 and have decided to retire early. I go at the end of April. Since I started letting people know, I've had 2 job offers already, and I'm only about 10% of the way thru telling people.
Folk out there are struggling for work, including a few friends of mine, and I'm getting job offers and I don't want to work!!!
That's life I guess, like only being able to afford a fanny magnet sports car when you're too old an decrepit to take advantage of it. You never get what you want when you need it, but always get what you wanted when you know longer need it.
CoupeKid said:
My contract is up at the end of June and I’m not relishing returning to the job market at the moment.
I think people expecting a mutually respectful job hunting experience with candidates being kept informed and getting feedback so they can get “closure” are a bit out of touch.
My take on it is this:
Apply for a job. Tweak your CV to hit as many key words in the advert as you can so it doesn’t get filtered out immediately by the automated system.
Then forgot about it. Put the application out of your mind. Apply for something else.
If you get an interview the first stage will probably be 30 minutes on the phone with them getting a feel for you.
There’s the essentials to consider that any powerfully built PH type would do like make sure you find somewhere quiet to go with good phone reception. They’ll ask about yourself so have an “elevator pitch” giving a brief précis of your job history, qualifications, skills and what you are looking for so why you want this job. Do your research on the company so you have some intelligent sounding questions to ask the person on the other end of the phone.
Then forget about it. Put the interview out of your mind and apply for something else.
If you get a second interview, which should be face to face but will probably be remote at the moment, do the usual like look smart etc etc.
Then forget about it. Go and apply for something else.
Etc
Companies rarely give feedback and recruitment consultants are your best mate when you are a candidate but as soon as you are unsuccessful they won’t want to know as you are a waste of their time when they could be looking for the next candidate. Failed interviewees don’t pay commission.
Thats fair enough, its a process I have followed in previous years too. Last 6 months is very different I have found. I'm not getting responses from job adverts at all, and barely any proactive contact from recruiters, so you have to chase and stalk and wheedle which is tough when you just want to get confirmation that the right person has received your application. I put this down to the huge applicant volumes currently and poor internal recruitment processes (with traditional agencies getting smaller bits of work now too). Nonsense around IR35 is muddying the waters too.I think people expecting a mutually respectful job hunting experience with candidates being kept informed and getting feedback so they can get “closure” are a bit out of touch.
My take on it is this:
Apply for a job. Tweak your CV to hit as many key words in the advert as you can so it doesn’t get filtered out immediately by the automated system.
Then forgot about it. Put the application out of your mind. Apply for something else.
If you get an interview the first stage will probably be 30 minutes on the phone with them getting a feel for you.
There’s the essentials to consider that any powerfully built PH type would do like make sure you find somewhere quiet to go with good phone reception. They’ll ask about yourself so have an “elevator pitch” giving a brief précis of your job history, qualifications, skills and what you are looking for so why you want this job. Do your research on the company so you have some intelligent sounding questions to ask the person on the other end of the phone.
Then forget about it. Put the interview out of your mind and apply for something else.
If you get a second interview, which should be face to face but will probably be remote at the moment, do the usual like look smart etc etc.
Then forget about it. Go and apply for something else.
Etc
Companies rarely give feedback and recruitment consultants are your best mate when you are a candidate but as soon as you are unsuccessful they won’t want to know as you are a waste of their time when they could be looking for the next candidate. Failed interviewees don’t pay commission.
I do get the 'dropped like a hot brick' thing, as soon as a candidate is out of the running they have no value so why waste time on them? Plus it's so common it should be expected, don't let it get to you. It just feels f
king rude when literally the day before you have been having detailed conversations about yourself and their company and potentially were a whisker away from being an employee. Plus you could still be a future customer, employee, supplier or partner, so why end in such a way? To be fair some people have let me down gently with some useful pointers. Some notable others have not though and although not obliged to, should really know better.I don’t disagree with you!
In an ideal world companies would see recruitment as PR. The way they treat job seekers reflects on the way they treat their staff, possibly their suppliers and possibly the quality of their products. There’s the “I gave my own feedback” thread where someone says they’d never buy from a well known high street company because of the way he was treated (I think, on phone so it’s too much faff to check).
One company I applied to a 6 or 7 years ago asked me to prepare a monthly report and do a video of myself answering some questions (am I a cat or a dog person ? fk off). That took a weekend to prepare and I got no feedback but the feeling they were complete ass hats. When they got in touch with me a couple of years ago for a completely different role they had got more conventional but I didn’t put a lot of effort into the application as I’d been burned before.
In an ideal world companies would see recruitment as PR. The way they treat job seekers reflects on the way they treat their staff, possibly their suppliers and possibly the quality of their products. There’s the “I gave my own feedback” thread where someone says they’d never buy from a well known high street company because of the way he was treated (I think, on phone so it’s too much faff to check).
One company I applied to a 6 or 7 years ago asked me to prepare a monthly report and do a video of myself answering some questions (am I a cat or a dog person ? f
k off). That took a weekend to prepare and I got no feedback but the feeling they were complete ass hats. When they got in touch with me a couple of years ago for a completely different role they had got more conventional but I didn’t put a lot of effort into the application as I’d been burned before. Nickbrapp said:
Now I get that 4 stages might be common for a high level job but these are all admin jobs paying minimum wage, I can’t help but think companies are getting above their station.
In my experience, the more senior the post the fewer steps you need to go through. My checkout role at Tesco 10+ years ago? Online application, personality quiz, paper assessment, two interviews...My current role in commercial property management? 15 minute telephone chat and one face-to-face interview before offer.
A friend of mine was a recruitment consultant in the IT industry for many years, and I was talking to him recently about the changes in the job market - especially when you are hitting 50.
The data suggests the most likely way of getting a job now a days is via ‘connections’, ie friends and colleagues introducing you to jobs which aren’t even advertised yet. This is how I have got my last two jobs.
He actually wrote a book a year or so ago called getting a job when you are over 50 (author name is Adrian Foster Fletcher), and when I read it the above point was confirmed, as were a load of things I had been told over the years but had forgotten! He has done quite a bit of charitable work at ‘job clubs’ helping people find work in the pandemic years, and has had a lot of success.
Beware jobs being advertised by agencies - sometimes they are just hunting for new talent, also think hard about who the staffing agencies are working for / it’s not the candidate as you don’t pay their bills!
The data suggests the most likely way of getting a job now a days is via ‘connections’, ie friends and colleagues introducing you to jobs which aren’t even advertised yet. This is how I have got my last two jobs.
He actually wrote a book a year or so ago called getting a job when you are over 50 (author name is Adrian Foster Fletcher), and when I read it the above point was confirmed, as were a load of things I had been told over the years but had forgotten! He has done quite a bit of charitable work at ‘job clubs’ helping people find work in the pandemic years, and has had a lot of success.
Beware jobs being advertised by agencies - sometimes they are just hunting for new talent, also think hard about who the staffing agencies are working for / it’s not the candidate as you don’t pay their bills!
Edited by oilit on Tuesday 6th April 06:15
Edited by oilit on Tuesday 6th April 06:19
Hi, regular poster with another username here 
I decided to seek a new role at the start of the year. Currently I'm a senior manager & director (not the only one) of a small software company, and got fed up with promises being made by the owner and the lack of investment. Having tried the usual route - get a CV written, customise per role, apply online etc - with no success, I signed up with a US company that is effectively an outplacement service but run for execs not for companies. While some of their process goes against received wisdom, it worked within 4 months and I now have an offer in my preferred location, for a great company, with a stonking great pay increase.
In summary, their process includes writing one good CV and not changing it per role. I used the one I had written before, they made a few changes and we worked on the wording for my target industry (IT) and specific marketable skill set. They then made a text version to be processed by an ATS "bot". Next step was to work on my LinkedIn profile and match it to my CV, and to get a profile photo taken which met their specs. Their data says that profiles with a good profile pic, waist up with a neutral or generic business-like background, and a banner (I'd done my own anyway) get significantly more views and follow-ups.
They then have a series of emails used to proactively contact recruiters and target companies, they get lists of contacts in each and I sent up to 3 emails per contact which are short and refer to my LinkedIn profile. Most responses come after the second email. Sometimes I got forwarded to someone else.
When I found a job I wanted to apply for, I'd apply online then they'd find contacts in relevant departments and HR or the recruiter (if known) to generate some name recogition and interest. That's how I got this job offer. Sending "thank you" mails after interviews helps you stand out too.
For every interview we'd have a briefing and practice call, they have quite a refined approach to exec interviews which made it much easier to be noticed and stand out. They also help with salary negotiation.
It's not cheap though - something like 500 quid up front and 8% of first year salary, but they reckon they get an average of 15% more than initial offer. In my case we hit around 35% over my current, I was expecting an offer around the same level so am very happy. They worked hard to get me data, train on the process and have many calls to support me, which was great when my confidence took a knock on every rejection before.
I decided to seek a new role at the start of the year. Currently I'm a senior manager & director (not the only one) of a small software company, and got fed up with promises being made by the owner and the lack of investment. Having tried the usual route - get a CV written, customise per role, apply online etc - with no success, I signed up with a US company that is effectively an outplacement service but run for execs not for companies. While some of their process goes against received wisdom, it worked within 4 months and I now have an offer in my preferred location, for a great company, with a stonking great pay increase.
In summary, their process includes writing one good CV and not changing it per role. I used the one I had written before, they made a few changes and we worked on the wording for my target industry (IT) and specific marketable skill set. They then made a text version to be processed by an ATS "bot". Next step was to work on my LinkedIn profile and match it to my CV, and to get a profile photo taken which met their specs. Their data says that profiles with a good profile pic, waist up with a neutral or generic business-like background, and a banner (I'd done my own anyway) get significantly more views and follow-ups.
They then have a series of emails used to proactively contact recruiters and target companies, they get lists of contacts in each and I sent up to 3 emails per contact which are short and refer to my LinkedIn profile. Most responses come after the second email. Sometimes I got forwarded to someone else.
When I found a job I wanted to apply for, I'd apply online then they'd find contacts in relevant departments and HR or the recruiter (if known) to generate some name recogition and interest. That's how I got this job offer. Sending "thank you" mails after interviews helps you stand out too.
For every interview we'd have a briefing and practice call, they have quite a refined approach to exec interviews which made it much easier to be noticed and stand out. They also help with salary negotiation.
It's not cheap though - something like 500 quid up front and 8% of first year salary, but they reckon they get an average of 15% more than initial offer. In my case we hit around 35% over my current, I was expecting an offer around the same level so am very happy. They worked hard to get me data, train on the process and have many calls to support me, which was great when my confidence took a knock on every rejection before.
gawdelpme said:
Hi, regular poster with another username here
I decided to seek a new role at the start of the year. Currently I'm a senior manager & director (not the only one) of a small software company, and got fed up with promises being made by the owner and the lack of investment. Having tried the usual route - get a CV written, customise per role, apply online etc - with no success, I signed up with a US company that is effectively an outplacement service but run for execs not for companies. While some of their process goes against received wisdom, it worked within 4 months and I now have an offer in my preferred location, for a great company, with a stonking great pay increase.
In summary, their process includes writing one good CV and not changing it per role. I used the one I had written before, they made a few changes and we worked on the wording for my target industry (IT) and specific marketable skill set. They then made a text version to be processed by an ATS "bot". Next step was to work on my LinkedIn profile and match it to my CV, and to get a profile photo taken which met their specs. Their data says that profiles with a good profile pic, waist up with a neutral or generic business-like background, and a banner (I'd done my own anyway) get significantly more views and follow-ups.
They then have a series of emails used to proactively contact recruiters and target companies, they get lists of contacts in each and I sent up to 3 emails per contact which are short and refer to my LinkedIn profile. Most responses come after the second email. Sometimes I got forwarded to someone else.
When I found a job I wanted to apply for, I'd apply online then they'd find contacts in relevant departments and HR or the recruiter (if known) to generate some name recogition and interest. That's how I got this job offer. Sending "thank you" mails after interviews helps you stand out too.
For every interview we'd have a briefing and practice call, they have quite a refined approach to exec interviews which made it much easier to be noticed and stand out. They also help with salary negotiation.
It's not cheap though - something like 500 quid up front and 8% of first year salary, but they reckon they get an average of 15% more than initial offer. In my case we hit around 35% over my current, I was expecting an offer around the same level so am very happy. They worked hard to get me data, train on the process and have many calls to support me, which was great when my confidence took a knock on every rejection before.
Interesting service - the CV/Linkedin revamp sounds pretty standard but doing the rooting around for you is something I could do with help with. Would you be able to DM me some details? Thanks!I decided to seek a new role at the start of the year. Currently I'm a senior manager & director (not the only one) of a small software company, and got fed up with promises being made by the owner and the lack of investment. Having tried the usual route - get a CV written, customise per role, apply online etc - with no success, I signed up with a US company that is effectively an outplacement service but run for execs not for companies. While some of their process goes against received wisdom, it worked within 4 months and I now have an offer in my preferred location, for a great company, with a stonking great pay increase.
In summary, their process includes writing one good CV and not changing it per role. I used the one I had written before, they made a few changes and we worked on the wording for my target industry (IT) and specific marketable skill set. They then made a text version to be processed by an ATS "bot". Next step was to work on my LinkedIn profile and match it to my CV, and to get a profile photo taken which met their specs. Their data says that profiles with a good profile pic, waist up with a neutral or generic business-like background, and a banner (I'd done my own anyway) get significantly more views and follow-ups.
They then have a series of emails used to proactively contact recruiters and target companies, they get lists of contacts in each and I sent up to 3 emails per contact which are short and refer to my LinkedIn profile. Most responses come after the second email. Sometimes I got forwarded to someone else.
When I found a job I wanted to apply for, I'd apply online then they'd find contacts in relevant departments and HR or the recruiter (if known) to generate some name recogition and interest. That's how I got this job offer. Sending "thank you" mails after interviews helps you stand out too.
For every interview we'd have a briefing and practice call, they have quite a refined approach to exec interviews which made it much easier to be noticed and stand out. They also help with salary negotiation.
It's not cheap though - something like 500 quid up front and 8% of first year salary, but they reckon they get an average of 15% more than initial offer. In my case we hit around 35% over my current, I was expecting an offer around the same level so am very happy. They worked hard to get me data, train on the process and have many calls to support me, which was great when my confidence took a knock on every rejection before.
prand said:
The uncertainty is a pain to live with though, as I spend most of every morning searching, applying and researching roles and living through the rollercoaster of anticipation, elation through to disappointment. Plus the mental effort in interviewing and selling yourself is considerable. Last month could be seen as a success - I managed to secure interviews for 5 different roles, including the marathon process of being interviewed for the Amazon role (detailed on the Shirt & Tie thread). I progressed well in them all, but ultimately came away with nothing. So I'm going to close the laptop and take a couple of days off to take stock, get on the bike, walk the dog and come back at it with a fresh pair of eyes.
I need to think what has been missing in my recent interviews though. Past history for me says I usually have a 2:1 hit rate on getting an offer when I reach interview stage. This month it was been 5:0, which is disappointing and unusual. I'm hoping that for the next interviews I manage to secure I will be able to use the well prepared examples I pulled together for the Amazon interviews, which, although perhaps weren't high enough standard for Amazon, I am sure will give me some good structure and confidence in my responses to impress (Using the STAR - Situation, Task, Action, Result format).
I recently had two different final round 'loops' with Amazon, one in operations (4 x 45mins) and other in commerce side (3 x 45mins). They are utterly brutal and only a little research online shows a whole industry for them in the US; books, tutors, podcasts etc.I need to think what has been missing in my recent interviews though. Past history for me says I usually have a 2:1 hit rate on getting an offer when I reach interview stage. This month it was been 5:0, which is disappointing and unusual. I'm hoping that for the next interviews I manage to secure I will be able to use the well prepared examples I pulled together for the Amazon interviews, which, although perhaps weren't high enough standard for Amazon, I am sure will give me some good structure and confidence in my responses to impress (Using the STAR - Situation, Task, Action, Result format).
Edited by prand on Wednesday 17th March 16:11
I was fortunate and had a little bit of feedback at the end but it was like sucking blood from a stone, the recruiters aren't meant to but they understand the time you've invested so it can be done!
Career_changer said:
I recently had two different final round 'loops' with Amazon, one in operations (4 x 45mins) and other in commerce side (3 x 45mins). They are utterly brutal and only a little research online shows a whole industry for them in the US; books, tutors, podcasts etc.
I was fortunate and had a little bit of feedback at the end but it was like sucking blood from a stone, the recruiters aren't meant to but they understand the time you've invested so it can be done!
Yeah, I tried to connect with a couple of the interviewers afterwards on LinkedIn (It's a bit controversial, but I do it regularly if I get on with an interviewer, plus I reckon after sharing so much and having a decent professional discussion, why not?) but got blanked. I was fortunate and had a little bit of feedback at the end but it was like sucking blood from a stone, the recruiters aren't meant to but they understand the time you've invested so it can be done!
The actual process is fair enough, it's the most comprehensive examination I've experienced for a long time and I enjoyed the challenge and experience, plus Amazon do want the best candidates and not water their company down as it grows.
Though I can't help but feel this is damaging some of their objectives and must be very frustrating for the recruiters. The hiring manager was desperate to fill the role to get workload even started this year let alone finished, he'd also had the headcount approved four months before that. He said I was the only candidate they had left at thhe final stage too, and if I was unsuccessful, I would have to start again wasting lord knows how many months finding someone else.
The length of time and lack of any contact really has put me off applying ever again though. I'm out of work right now, and simply can't afford to hang around. I've got an application in at the moment that I bunged in speculatively that has taken over a month to go from "Application submitted" to "Under consideration" which may indicate I get a first interview at some point. I'm hoping to have another job in the meantime, so if that's the case I'll take a little pleasure from dragging out my response by several weeks and then declining with a one line email....
prand said:
Yeah, I tried to connect with a couple of the interviewers afterwards on LinkedIn (It's a bit controversial, but I do it regularly if I get on with an interviewer, plus I reckon after sharing so much and having a decent professional discussion, why not?) but got blanked.
The actual process is fair enough, it's the most comprehensive examination I've experienced for a long time and I enjoyed the challenge and experience, plus Amazon do want the best candidates and not water their company down as it grows.
Though I can't help but feel this is damaging some of their objectives and must be very frustrating for the recruiters. The hiring manager was desperate to fill the role to get workload even started this year let alone finished, he'd also had the headcount approved four months before that. He said I was the only candidate they had left at thhe final stage too, and if I was unsuccessful, I would have to start again wasting lord knows how many months finding someone else.
The length of time and lack of any contact really has put me off applying ever again though. I'm out of work right now, and simply can't afford to hang around. I've got an application in at the moment that I bunged in speculatively that has taken over a month to go from "Application submitted" to "Under consideration" which may indicate I get a first interview at some point. I'm hoping to have another job in the meantime, so if that's the case I'll take a little pleasure from dragging out my response by several weeks and then declining with a one line email....
Blast I didn't ask how many had got to that stage! The feedback was brief but did confirm that 'Dive Deep' was my LP weakness as I thought, in both interviews. Yours sounds quite frustrating but amazing how picky they are!The actual process is fair enough, it's the most comprehensive examination I've experienced for a long time and I enjoyed the challenge and experience, plus Amazon do want the best candidates and not water their company down as it grows.
Though I can't help but feel this is damaging some of their objectives and must be very frustrating for the recruiters. The hiring manager was desperate to fill the role to get workload even started this year let alone finished, he'd also had the headcount approved four months before that. He said I was the only candidate they had left at thhe final stage too, and if I was unsuccessful, I would have to start again wasting lord knows how many months finding someone else.
The length of time and lack of any contact really has put me off applying ever again though. I'm out of work right now, and simply can't afford to hang around. I've got an application in at the moment that I bunged in speculatively that has taken over a month to go from "Application submitted" to "Under consideration" which may indicate I get a first interview at some point. I'm hoping to have another job in the meantime, so if that's the case I'll take a little pleasure from dragging out my response by several weeks and then declining with a one line email....
I have applied for probably 100 jobs in the last 4 months and that was the furthest I have got which I'm really proud of and it is fantastic practice. My experience with the recruiters was quite good and from start to finish a relatively short time compared to some jobs I have applied to. Did you get a suggested reapplication date for the roles you had loop interviews?
I applied for these roles straight off their website without realising their military veterans network was so strong. I was in a veteran seminar recently (after my interviews unfortunately!) in which recruiters said DON'T have loads of applications in at one go, especially if they are in clearly different disciplines, so watch out for that. Their veteran seminars I've been in (again all post being unsuccessful) have been great for general CV and interview advice too. I'm pretty sure when you log into them you don't need to prove ex-army so I think anyone can actually listen in. But maybe they offer them elsewhere to normal civilians too...
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