Issue after retirement, advise sought.
Discussion
Was employed on the railways for a train operating company for almost 19 years. Was in the pension scheme from the start when I joined in 2002.
Under the pension scheme rules as a member before 2006 i was allowed to retire earlier than the normal expected age, and claim the pension. Normal retirement age for myself was 62, raised from 60 in 2016 when some Pensions reforms were carried out to avoid a shortfall in the scheme, so pay more and work later.
In my case I could claim benefits from the age of 50, but chose to take them when I reached 55. Obviously this would be at a lower level pension than if I had waited till 62, as less time in the scheme, and less contributions on my and my employers part, all happy with that.
So having left on 6/3/21, I'm having to wait till 4/4/21 for my final payment from the company, which would include any outstanding money owing to me, this is where I have now an issue.
According to my contract terms and conditions, in a retirement year, any unused holiday hours for that year, will be payed in cash, or used prior to leaving, I have an allocation of 288 hours, of which I have used 35 before I left, so balance of 253 remaining. I'll post the relevent section below.
12.8 annual leave on retirement
Leave entitlement during the year of retirement [including early (60+)retirement ] and also in cases of redundancy and ill health retirement : rostered leave to be taken up to the date of leaving and the balance of the years to be taken as leave or payment by agreement with the local manager /Supervisor
No leave balance will be payed on resignation (except for lieu leave accrued)
Death in service : all outstanding annual leave (current annual leave year) and lieu leave accrued will be payed to the estate of the deceased person.
Now my issue is that HR are taking the view that as I retired before 60, I'm therefore not eligible for the holiday hours payment, this I'm finding hard to fathom, as I qualify for the pension to be taken according to the pension rules, I've actually retired, and am in receipt of the pension, they seem to be focused n the 60+ in brackets, but as I've said, I believe that refers to the normal pension retirement age, and before that should be classed as early retirement.
I'm still in the RMT union, as after I've left work they have still paid my subs a month later, and bizarrely also paid pension contributions, to a scheme that has already calculated my benefits, and started paying, need to chase that too.
But having spoke to my rep, I don't have a great deal of confidence in him, he wasn't the most pro active person when I was employed there.
Any advise as to how I should proceed on this matter, as whilst in the great scheme of things, the money involved (6k) is not massive, the principle that I believe I'm entitled to it is grating on me, I couldn't pick and choose what terms and conditions i worked to, and neither should the company be able to, by a weired interpretation.
Thanks for reading so far.
Under the pension scheme rules as a member before 2006 i was allowed to retire earlier than the normal expected age, and claim the pension. Normal retirement age for myself was 62, raised from 60 in 2016 when some Pensions reforms were carried out to avoid a shortfall in the scheme, so pay more and work later.
In my case I could claim benefits from the age of 50, but chose to take them when I reached 55. Obviously this would be at a lower level pension than if I had waited till 62, as less time in the scheme, and less contributions on my and my employers part, all happy with that.
So having left on 6/3/21, I'm having to wait till 4/4/21 for my final payment from the company, which would include any outstanding money owing to me, this is where I have now an issue.
According to my contract terms and conditions, in a retirement year, any unused holiday hours for that year, will be payed in cash, or used prior to leaving, I have an allocation of 288 hours, of which I have used 35 before I left, so balance of 253 remaining. I'll post the relevent section below.
12.8 annual leave on retirement
Leave entitlement during the year of retirement [including early (60+)retirement ] and also in cases of redundancy and ill health retirement : rostered leave to be taken up to the date of leaving and the balance of the years to be taken as leave or payment by agreement with the local manager /Supervisor
No leave balance will be payed on resignation (except for lieu leave accrued)
Death in service : all outstanding annual leave (current annual leave year) and lieu leave accrued will be payed to the estate of the deceased person.
Now my issue is that HR are taking the view that as I retired before 60, I'm therefore not eligible for the holiday hours payment, this I'm finding hard to fathom, as I qualify for the pension to be taken according to the pension rules, I've actually retired, and am in receipt of the pension, they seem to be focused n the 60+ in brackets, but as I've said, I believe that refers to the normal pension retirement age, and before that should be classed as early retirement.
I'm still in the RMT union, as after I've left work they have still paid my subs a month later, and bizarrely also paid pension contributions, to a scheme that has already calculated my benefits, and started paying, need to chase that too.
But having spoke to my rep, I don't have a great deal of confidence in him, he wasn't the most pro active person when I was employed there.
Any advise as to how I should proceed on this matter, as whilst in the great scheme of things, the money involved (6k) is not massive, the principle that I believe I'm entitled to it is grating on me, I couldn't pick and choose what terms and conditions i worked to, and neither should the company be able to, by a weired interpretation.
Thanks for reading so far.
Mr Pointy said:
I'm also not a lawyer but this sentance seems to indicate if you leave early but over 60 then you get the leave paid:
Leave entitlement during the year of retirement [including early (60+)retirement]
As you retired before 60 then you don't get the outstanding leave paid.
This is the view of the company, but how is leaving at 60 and above claimed as early retirement?Leave entitlement during the year of retirement [including early (60+)retirement]
As you retired before 60 then you don't get the outstanding leave paid.
When the pension stated retirement age is 60/62 for full pension
And I'm not sure if it applies, but wasn't it in 2011 that upper retirement age was scrapped, to prevent companies enforcing retirement on those who didn't want to? So what is the age that anyone can say is early?
Have you accrued this holiday in time worked? or is this a benefit the company choose to give where they just pay you out the full holiday entitlement for the year even though you may have only worked a couple of days?
If it's the latter, then surely it's up to them if they only want to give this benefit to people who work until at least 60.
If it's the latter, then surely it's up to them if they only want to give this benefit to people who work until at least 60.
rigga said:
Mr Pointy said:
I'm also not a lawyer but this sentance seems to indicate if you leave early but over 60 then you get the leave paid:
Leave entitlement during the year of retirement [including early (60+)retirement]
As you retired before 60 then you don't get the outstanding leave paid.
This is the view of the company, but how is leaving at 60 and above claimed as early retirement?Leave entitlement during the year of retirement [including early (60+)retirement]
As you retired before 60 then you don't get the outstanding leave paid.
When the pension stated retirement age is 60/62 for full pension
And I'm not sure if it applies, but wasn't it in 2011 that upper retirement age was scrapped, to prevent companies enforcing retirement on those who didn't want to? So what is the age that anyone can say is early?
Leave entitlement for the year as stated is 288 hours, less 35 I took before I retired, its £6k, again as per the OP.
Wording is that the year entitlement is what's available, not accrued due to time working, agreed its more beneficial should you retire in the early part of the year, rather than later, and a lot more holidays have been taken. Also states that if you just leave and not retire, then its on pro rata accrued holiday you would be entitle to.
Wording is that the year entitlement is what's available, not accrued due to time working, agreed its more beneficial should you retire in the early part of the year, rather than later, and a lot more holidays have been taken. Also states that if you just leave and not retire, then its on pro rata accrued holiday you would be entitle to.
I don't know what the intent of that clause was - maybe it was to exclude early retirees. BUT it doesn't exclude anything, it just says 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' and then that it specifically includes early (60+) retirement. It doesn't say that anything is excluded.
The OP has retired and therefore 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' applies. Because it is the year of retirement.
The OP has retired and therefore 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' applies. Because it is the year of retirement.
CharlesElliott said:
I don't know what the intent of that clause was - maybe it was to exclude early retirees. BUT it doesn't exclude anything, it just says 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' and then that it specifically includes early (60+) retirement. It doesn't say that anything is excluded.
The OP has retired and therefore 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' applies. Because it is the year of retirement.
Well I'd suggest that the the phrase "year of retirement" means at the normal retirement age - 62 in the OP's case. If they meant retirement at any age then it wouldn't have to be qualified by including the words "[including early (60+) retirement]" as they would be redundant.The OP has retired and therefore 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' applies. Because it is the year of retirement.
Mr Pointy said:
CharlesElliott said:
I don't know what the intent of that clause was - maybe it was to exclude early retirees. BUT it doesn't exclude anything, it just says 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' and then that it specifically includes early (60+) retirement. It doesn't say that anything is excluded.
The OP has retired and therefore 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' applies. Because it is the year of retirement.
Well I'd suggest that the the phrase "year of retirement" means at the normal retirement age - 62 in the OP's case. If they meant retirement at any age then it wouldn't have to be qualified by including the words "[including early (60+) retirement]" as they would be redundant.The OP has retired and therefore 'Leave entitlement during the year of retirement' applies. Because it is the year of retirement.
Retirement at any age, would obviously need to be in line for the rules of the scheme, I was able to retire at 55, which is early compared to the norm, others cannot due to the time they have been in the scheme and are not protected (safeguarded members go back to BR days)
Will say this has been paid before to a colleague, who retired pre 60 due to family issues, then rejoined the company a couple of years later, he received his full yearly allocation of holiday hours, I'm just getting computer says no every time I enquire. This wording was introduced into the restructuring agreement in 2012, pension age increased in 2016.
Initially a former head of depots put this in place, only two things he was happy to include, retire and have your holiday pay, and double time for Christmas eve night and boxing night working
Mr Pointy said:
Well I'd suggest that the the phrase "year of retirement" means at the normal retirement age - 62 in the OP's case. If they meant retirement at any age then it wouldn't have to be qualified by including the words "[including early (60+) retirement]" as they would be redundant.
You might be right and I can see how the the 'including....' phrase may well have had that intent. But my argument would be that the main clause says 'the year of retirement'. The OP has chosen to retire early according to the rules, so that is his year of retirement.Of course, it doesn't actually matter what either of us think :-).
CharlesElliott said:
Mr Pointy said:
Well I'd suggest that the the phrase "year of retirement" means at the normal retirement age - 62 in the OP's case. If they meant retirement at any age then it wouldn't have to be qualified by including the words "[including early (60+) retirement]" as they would be redundant.
You might be right and I can see how the the 'including....' phrase may well have had that intent. But my argument would be that the main clause says 'the year of retirement'. The OP has chosen to retire early according to the rules, so that is his year of retirement.Of course, it doesn't actually matter what either of us think :-).
rigga said:
12.8 annual leave on retirement
Leave entitlement during the year of retirement [including early (60+)retirement ] and also in cases of redundancy and ill health retirement : rostered leave to be taken up to the date of leaving and the balance of the years to be taken as leave or payment by agreement with the local manager /Supervisor
What was agreed with the local manager /Supervisor? Do you have this in writing?Leave entitlement during the year of retirement [including early (60+)retirement ] and also in cases of redundancy and ill health retirement : rostered leave to be taken up to the date of leaving and the balance of the years to be taken as leave or payment by agreement with the local manager /Supervisor
Payment for outstanding annual leave on termination of employment for any reason is almost always discretionary where the employee is leaving of their own volition. I would read the intent of paragraph 12.8 is to provide a concession to employees retiring aged 60+, who might have a day or two of leave outstanding on their retirement date it wasn't possible to schedule in.
I'm not sure you've helped your own case here by retiring with over 6 weeks/ 88% of a years worth of annual leave entitlement outstanding. That suggests you haven't managed your leave in a normal way.
I think you've taken a big gamble in not getting a firm position on this from HR at the point you notified them you intended to retire. I suspect had you discussed this with them they would have advised that you use your leave before you finished, setting your actual retirement date back if necessary.
IANAL but I don't think you've got a leg to stand to legally unless you have something in writing from your manager/Supervisor.
I took the required amount of hours in the 1st quarter of the year as laid out by my manager, I then left the company, with the remaining hours outstanding.
Yes I may have no right to those hours, but ill pursue it until its absolutely confirmed.
I requested from HR by email what I would be receiving in my final pay packet, the reply I got was short, "what you are entitled to " yes I should have got that further clarified, but I didn't, as the view of the union was I would be paid the balance of the years leave.
Every time someone mentions the 60 in brackets, no one then gives clarification of the early retirement that accompanies it. This is the part that needs to be sorted, and i think its been badly drafted, but its what it is.
Again I'm not the first person to take early retirement before 60, and it has been paid out as described to at least one person to my knowledge, who subsequently returned to the company, hence how I know he got it. Operating company and HR personal have changed since that time.
Also have an email chain which has my line manager informing payroll I have 253 hours outstanding, HR have then got involved.
Yes I may have no right to those hours, but ill pursue it until its absolutely confirmed.
I requested from HR by email what I would be receiving in my final pay packet, the reply I got was short, "what you are entitled to " yes I should have got that further clarified, but I didn't, as the view of the union was I would be paid the balance of the years leave.
Every time someone mentions the 60 in brackets, no one then gives clarification of the early retirement that accompanies it. This is the part that needs to be sorted, and i think its been badly drafted, but its what it is.
Again I'm not the first person to take early retirement before 60, and it has been paid out as described to at least one person to my knowledge, who subsequently returned to the company, hence how I know he got it. Operating company and HR personal have changed since that time.
Also have an email chain which has my line manager informing payroll I have 253 hours outstanding, HR have then got involved.
Edited by rigga on Wednesday 14th April 11:28
A couple of months down the road, but a conclusion to a thread that we all like to see.
RMT union got involved, pretty hard it seems to get someone from the company to sit down and discuss the issue I was having, eventually local rep had enough, and escalated it up the chain as "a failure to agree "
Company then had to resolve the issue, and last week they agreed to pay the outstanding holiday to myself, and two other guys who have retired, and I've now received that money ..... happy days.
RMT union got involved, pretty hard it seems to get someone from the company to sit down and discuss the issue I was having, eventually local rep had enough, and escalated it up the chain as "a failure to agree "
Company then had to resolve the issue, and last week they agreed to pay the outstanding holiday to myself, and two other guys who have retired, and I've now received that money ..... happy days.
rigga said:
A couple of months down the road, but a conclusion to a thread that we all like to see.
RMT union got involved, pretty hard it seems to get someone from the company to sit down and discuss the issue I was having, eventually local rep had enough, and escalated it up the chain as "a failure to agree "
Company then had to resolve the issue, and last week they agreed to pay the outstanding holiday to myself, and two other guys who have retired, and I've now received that money ..... happy days.
Well done, good result, get it spent on a holiday, oh err hopefully soon :-) RMT union got involved, pretty hard it seems to get someone from the company to sit down and discuss the issue I was having, eventually local rep had enough, and escalated it up the chain as "a failure to agree "
Company then had to resolve the issue, and last week they agreed to pay the outstanding holiday to myself, and two other guys who have retired, and I've now received that money ..... happy days.
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff