I don't think i'm an effective boss
Discussion
Anyone else struggle to manage people? I run a small accounts practice and it seems to be getting harder and harder to get staff who just come and get the job done.
Person 1 - Actually a good accountant who could do work quickly and once a job was finished would be pestering me for the next one. Every single job he did had problems and queries that could have been 95% resolved by looking at previous years files. No amount of me sending the job with 'look at last year' made him actually do it. I should have probably told him very firmly that if he bought me queries that were solved by me looking at previous years then I wouldn't be happy. I just don't like confrontation.
Person 2 - They do most of the book keeping functions, new hire and very capable. They had 3 weeks off for isolation where they took work home and did it there. Not particularly effective but did the job. They came back and had some more time off sick and took some work home. So i'll have to fix all that again. I felt I couldn't say anything as they claimed illness but I think they enjoyed working when they wanted from home and want to keep that going for a bit longer.
Person 3 - New hire and decent worker who works hard. We have different way of working from their previous firm (which they knew) and nearly every single day he goes on about the software and using software and how it makes everything easier. I told him he needs to learn everything here FIRST before making suggestions about anything. Yesterday I was pretty sick of hearing about how the software does this/that/the other and I had to go out for a bit. Between the lines I think the reality is that he's got all his exams done and his experience is limited to a firm where all the work was done via book keeping software, he doesn't seem able to perform the same functions on a very basic level via excel.
Very hard to get staff in this industry and I think I let my fear of them leaving guide me too much.
Person 1 - Actually a good accountant who could do work quickly and once a job was finished would be pestering me for the next one. Every single job he did had problems and queries that could have been 95% resolved by looking at previous years files. No amount of me sending the job with 'look at last year' made him actually do it. I should have probably told him very firmly that if he bought me queries that were solved by me looking at previous years then I wouldn't be happy. I just don't like confrontation.
Person 2 - They do most of the book keeping functions, new hire and very capable. They had 3 weeks off for isolation where they took work home and did it there. Not particularly effective but did the job. They came back and had some more time off sick and took some work home. So i'll have to fix all that again. I felt I couldn't say anything as they claimed illness but I think they enjoyed working when they wanted from home and want to keep that going for a bit longer.
Person 3 - New hire and decent worker who works hard. We have different way of working from their previous firm (which they knew) and nearly every single day he goes on about the software and using software and how it makes everything easier. I told him he needs to learn everything here FIRST before making suggestions about anything. Yesterday I was pretty sick of hearing about how the software does this/that/the other and I had to go out for a bit. Between the lines I think the reality is that he's got all his exams done and his experience is limited to a firm where all the work was done via book keeping software, he doesn't seem able to perform the same functions on a very basic level via excel.
Very hard to get staff in this industry and I think I let my fear of them leaving guide me too much.
zedstar said:
Person 1 - Actually a good accountant who could do work quickly and once a job was finished would be pestering me for the next one. Every single job he did had problems and queries that could have been 95% resolved by looking at previous years files. No amount of me sending the job with 'look at last year' made him actually do it. I should have probably told him very firmly that if he bought me queries that were solved by me looking at previous years then I wouldn't be happy. I just don't like confrontation.
It's not confrontation to call someone on the quality of their work. Unless you tell them what they are doing wrong they have no way of knowing how to improve. If you tell them, show them and encourage them but they still don't get it right, your job as their manager is to find out why that is the case and fix it. That's not being confrontational, that's delivering on your responsibility. zedstar said:
Person 2 - They do most of the book keeping functions, new hire and very capable. They had 3 weeks off for isolation where they took work home and did it there. Not particularly effective but did the job. They came back and had some more time off sick and took some work home. So i'll have to fix all that again. I felt I couldn't say anything as they claimed illness but I think they enjoyed working when they wanted from home and want to keep that going for a bit longer.
If that's the case you need to ask why. What is or isn't happening in the workplace that they'd rather work from home? zedstar said:
Person 3 - New hire and decent worker who works hard. We have different way of working from their previous firm (which they knew) and nearly every single day he goes on about the software and using software and how it makes everything easier. I told him he needs to learn everything here FIRST before making suggestions about anything. Yesterday I was pretty sick of hearing about how the software does this/that/the other and I had to go out for a bit. Between the lines I think the reality is that he's got all his exams done and his experience is limited to a firm where all the work was done via book keeping software, he doesn't seem able to perform the same functions on a very basic level via excel.
Have you considered the possibility that he may have a point? One of the benefits of new hires is not that they simply fill a hole but they also can bring fresh perspective on how to do things. Rather than just rebuff his comments, task him with writing a paper that proposes what he's suggesting, get him to cost up to a feasibility study and pitch the idea so that you can give it proper consideration. Even you you do nothing with the information, the fact that you have positively responded to his suggestion will boost his morale no end.
The following is going to sound hard but I speak having been in a similar position to yourself so is said with hope it helps.....
From what you've said, I'd agree with the title of your thread. What you are doing is deflecting your deficiencies onto the staff you are responsible for. An effective boss would go to the 'Business' section on PH and ask question like....
How can help one of my team stop constantly making mistakes?
How can I deal with an employee happier to work from home than in the office?
How can I best channel the enthusiasm of a new member of the team who has all these ideas?
So as a start, why don't you do that and see what sort of replies you get there.
Managing people is difficult, and IME, it’s a classic case of 80/20. 80% of the time is spent on 20% of the people.
It depends upon how much you are expected to manage people and how much you actually do, what appears to be, actual work.
One of the issues I’ve had in the past as a subordinate is “am I doing OK here?” If everything is OK, you get to hear once every 12 months at your annual appraisal that everything is OK, but you may hear that something you should have been told about, when it happened. They have sat on it for 8 months waiting for this moment to speak up about it. This is poor management in my book.
I ran a design team that had a one-to-one with each member every single month without fail, ok, there were only 5 of them, but I thought it was priceless, and it stops problems festering quickly.
Stevie Bee has the advice as to what to do here down to a tee, especially the last example/Person 3. Anyone can sit there and say “this was great, and it used to be so much better where I last worked...” Putting a plan together as to how it’s all going to work as the process is being changed and the business continue to function is another. It might make them sit up and think, that there may be more to this than meets the eye.
I must be honest here and say I thought all book keeping was done with book keeping software today…
It depends upon how much you are expected to manage people and how much you actually do, what appears to be, actual work.
One of the issues I’ve had in the past as a subordinate is “am I doing OK here?” If everything is OK, you get to hear once every 12 months at your annual appraisal that everything is OK, but you may hear that something you should have been told about, when it happened. They have sat on it for 8 months waiting for this moment to speak up about it. This is poor management in my book.
I ran a design team that had a one-to-one with each member every single month without fail, ok, there were only 5 of them, but I thought it was priceless, and it stops problems festering quickly.
Stevie Bee has the advice as to what to do here down to a tee, especially the last example/Person 3. Anyone can sit there and say “this was great, and it used to be so much better where I last worked...” Putting a plan together as to how it’s all going to work as the process is being changed and the business continue to function is another. It might make them sit up and think, that there may be more to this than meets the eye.
I must be honest here and say I thought all book keeping was done with book keeping software today…
StevieBee said:
Have you considered the possibility that he may have a point?
I have indeed, infact all the software at work from the accounts to the payroll to the MTD was entirely suggested by staff. All of it. I will always listen, but I just feel that you need to work somewhere for more than 3 weeks before trying to change everything. The accounting software was suggested by a member of staff who, after a year or so here, managed to point out all the deficiencies that would be cured by it. They were totally correct. StevieBee said:
From what you've said, I'd agree with the title of your thread. What you are doing is deflecting your deficiencies onto the staff you are responsible for.
No doubt.There was a good thread on one of the sections about how to keep your staff happy and i did read it with much interest. I probably need to dedicate more time to keeping them motivated.
I have regular (every 2-4 weeks) 1:1 with my team, it is their time to go through what they want, we don't discuss work deadlines, we discuss them. It is a mixture of coaching/mentoring, asking them how can I empower them, what would good look like - make them work through solutions.
Worked great for them, much happier, motivated and able to work on their own. And it is a great feeling when you see something click in someone's head when they figure out something for themselves.
I had training on coaching/mentoring prior to this (which I recommend you do), prior to that I was very aware of my 'issues' - too high standards for myself and others, expectation everyone does things the same way I would and works/learns the same way.
Remove the moniker 'boss' focus on being a team and supporting each other. I'm lucky my company supports this approach - my manager visited the UK last year and took me to one side when I kept introducing him as my manager, he said we're colleagues in a team, hierarchy doesn't matter. Of course there are times it does, but practise being more open with your team structure. (Took me a while to adopt).
Worked great for them, much happier, motivated and able to work on their own. And it is a great feeling when you see something click in someone's head when they figure out something for themselves.
I had training on coaching/mentoring prior to this (which I recommend you do), prior to that I was very aware of my 'issues' - too high standards for myself and others, expectation everyone does things the same way I would and works/learns the same way.
Remove the moniker 'boss' focus on being a team and supporting each other. I'm lucky my company supports this approach - my manager visited the UK last year and took me to one side when I kept introducing him as my manager, he said we're colleagues in a team, hierarchy doesn't matter. Of course there are times it does, but practise being more open with your team structure. (Took me a while to adopt).
Probably won't help anyone (but it made me feel better) but years ago had a member of staff who whenever tasked with something would reply with 'but at my last company we did it like this'. Every time. In the end I said to them if it was that much better at their last company why didn't they just f
k off back there and be done with it. They didn't say it again.
k off back there and be done with it. They didn't say it again. ozzuk said:
I have regular (every 2-4 weeks) 1:1 with my team, it is their time to go through what they want, we don't discuss work deadlines, we discuss them. It is a mixture of coaching/mentoring, asking them how can I empower them, what would good look like - make them work through solutions.
Worked great for them, much happier, motivated and able to work on their own. And it is a great feeling when you see something click in someone's head when they figure out something for themselves.
I have a real problem with my staff pestering me for answers to stuff they should know whenever I am in the office.Worked great for them, much happier, motivated and able to work on their own. And it is a great feeling when you see something click in someone's head when they figure out something for themselves.
I experimented with making Thursday afternoon an "ask Johnny" time, with the fairly obvious hint being to leave me the f
k alone more the rest of the time. It failed. I had to sit and answer their dumb questions on Thursday and the rest of the time.
zedstar said:
Anyone else struggle to manage people? I run a small accounts practice and it seems to be getting harder and harder to get staff who just come and get the job done.
Person 1 - Actually a good accountant who could do work quickly and once a job was finished would be pestering me for the next one. Every single job he did had problems and queries that could have been 95% resolved by looking at previous years files. No amount of me sending the job with 'look at last year' made him actually do it. I should have probably told him very firmly that if he bought me queries that were solved by me looking at previous years then I wouldn't be happy. I just don't like confrontation.
Hi person 1. OK what is the problem you have? Person 1 - Actually a good accountant who could do work quickly and once a job was finished would be pestering me for the next one. Every single job he did had problems and queries that could have been 95% resolved by looking at previous years files. No amount of me sending the job with 'look at last year' made him actually do it. I should have probably told him very firmly that if he bought me queries that were solved by me looking at previous years then I wouldn't be happy. I just don't like confrontation.
Person 1. Xxxxxx figures
I understand. What do you think would be the solution?
Person 1. I don't know thats why I came to you.
OK where could you find out info on xxxx problem.
Person1 erm maybe last years books?
Thats a good idea let me know how you get on with that.
zedstar said:
StevieBee said:
Have you considered the possibility that he may have a point?
I have indeed, infact all the software at work from the accounts to the payroll to the MTD was entirely suggested by staff. All of it. I will always listen, but I just feel that you need to work somewhere for more than 3 weeks before trying to change everything. The accounting software was suggested by a member of staff who, after a year or so here, managed to point out all the deficiencies that would be cured by it. They were totally correct. Having had discussions with other recent new starters, they also spotted some of the things I did very quickly.
Sometimes if you have only worked in one place or been somewhere a long time, and many of the people there are the same. You've little idea as to how much better things can be if you don't do things the way you've always done them. Especially so if the business is reasonably successful.
zedstar said:
Anyone else struggle to manage people? I run a small accounts practice and it seems to be getting harder and harder to get staff who just come and get the job done.
Person 1 - Actually a good accountant who could do work quickly and once a job was finished would be pestering me for the next one. Every single job he did had problems and queries that could have been 95% resolved by looking at previous years files. No amount of me sending the job with 'look at last year' made him actually do it. I should have probably told him very firmly that if he bought me queries that were solved by me looking at previous years then I wouldn't be happy. I just don't like confrontation.
Person 2 - They do most of the book keeping functions, new hire and very capable. They had 3 weeks off for isolation where they took work home and did it there. Not particularly effective but did the job. They came back and had some more time off sick and took some work home. So i'll have to fix all that again. I felt I couldn't say anything as they claimed illness but I think they enjoyed working when they wanted from home and want to keep that going for a bit longer.
Person 3 - New hire and decent worker who works hard. We have different way of working from their previous firm (which they knew) and nearly every single day he goes on about the software and using software and how it makes everything easier. I told him he needs to learn everything here FIRST before making suggestions about anything. Yesterday I was pretty sick of hearing about how the software does this/that/the other and I had to go out for a bit. Between the lines I think the reality is that he's got all his exams done and his experience is limited to a firm where all the work was done via book keeping software, he doesn't seem able to perform the same functions on a very basic level via excel.
Very hard to get staff in this industry and I think I let my fear of them leaving guide me too much.
I think you need some training in becoming a better boss. You don't wake up one morning and become one. You need training and practice.Person 1 - Actually a good accountant who could do work quickly and once a job was finished would be pestering me for the next one. Every single job he did had problems and queries that could have been 95% resolved by looking at previous years files. No amount of me sending the job with 'look at last year' made him actually do it. I should have probably told him very firmly that if he bought me queries that were solved by me looking at previous years then I wouldn't be happy. I just don't like confrontation.
Person 2 - They do most of the book keeping functions, new hire and very capable. They had 3 weeks off for isolation where they took work home and did it there. Not particularly effective but did the job. They came back and had some more time off sick and took some work home. So i'll have to fix all that again. I felt I couldn't say anything as they claimed illness but I think they enjoyed working when they wanted from home and want to keep that going for a bit longer.
Person 3 - New hire and decent worker who works hard. We have different way of working from their previous firm (which they knew) and nearly every single day he goes on about the software and using software and how it makes everything easier. I told him he needs to learn everything here FIRST before making suggestions about anything. Yesterday I was pretty sick of hearing about how the software does this/that/the other and I had to go out for a bit. Between the lines I think the reality is that he's got all his exams done and his experience is limited to a firm where all the work was done via book keeping software, he doesn't seem able to perform the same functions on a very basic level via excel.
Very hard to get staff in this industry and I think I let my fear of them leaving guide me too much.
Management/Leadership skills can be thought, you don't need to learn them on the job. There are techniques and approaches that will be relevant to your particular issues.
Johnnytheboy said:
I have a real problem with my staff pestering me for answers to stuff they should know whenever I am in the office.
I experimented with making Thursday afternoon an "ask Johnny" time, with the fairly obvious hint being to leave me the fk alone more the rest of the time.
It failed. I had to sit and answer their dumb questions on Thursday and the rest of the time.
That means you're mentoring, not coaching. If you coach effectively one of two things will happen, one they'll get sick of asking you because you always get them to figure it out, or two you'll get them used to thinking it through on their own. The trick is getting the balance between coaching/mentoring. It is always a challenge making the time and at first they/you won't see the benefit but it is worth the investment. Do get training/self read at least though as it is definitely a skill to do it effectively.I experimented with making Thursday afternoon an "ask Johnny" time, with the fairly obvious hint being to leave me the f
k alone more the rest of the time. It failed. I had to sit and answer their dumb questions on Thursday and the rest of the time.
Jordan Peterson would call it being disagreeable, you probably need some of that.
I'm not a fan either and glad I don't have to do it anymore.
I'd sit them down and go through any shortcomings. If they do it again after being shown that's when you can say you'd be unimpressed if they brought the same problem back to you.
Ultimately most people are lazy or incompetent to a greater or lesser extend and expecting people to meet your expectations is almost always a lesson in futility I've found.
I'm not a fan either and glad I don't have to do it anymore.
I'd sit them down and go through any shortcomings. If they do it again after being shown that's when you can say you'd be unimpressed if they brought the same problem back to you.
Ultimately most people are lazy or incompetent to a greater or lesser extend and expecting people to meet your expectations is almost always a lesson in futility I've found.
ozzuk said:
Johnnytheboy said:
I have a real problem with my staff pestering me for answers to stuff they should know whenever I am in the office.
I experimented with making Thursday afternoon an "ask Johnny" time, with the fairly obvious hint being to leave me the fk alone more the rest of the time.
It failed. I had to sit and answer their dumb questions on Thursday and the rest of the time.
That means you're mentoring, not coaching. If you coach effectively one of two things will happen, one they'll get sick of asking you because you always get them to figure it out, or two you'll get them used to thinking it through on their own. The trick is getting the balance between coaching/mentoring. It is always a challenge making the time and at first they/you won't see the benefit but it is worth the investment. Do get training/self read at least though as it is definitely a skill to do it effectively.I experimented with making Thursday afternoon an "ask Johnny" time, with the fairly obvious hint being to leave me the f
k alone more the rest of the time. It failed. I had to sit and answer their dumb questions on Thursday and the rest of the time.
Mine are mostly on their last job and just want to bumble around, not have to make decisions or be responsible for them.
I've had some training of the type you suggest; like most management training I thought it laboured under the misapprehension that workers have the same mindset as people who have made it to management, and can be expected to think and act the same.
zedstar said:
Person 3 - New hire and decent worker who works hard. We have different way of working from their previous firm (which they knew) and nearly every single day he goes on about the software and using software and how it makes everything easier. I told him he needs to learn everything here FIRST before making suggestions about anything. Yesterday I was pretty sick of hearing about how the software does this/that/the other and I had to go out for a bit. Between the lines I think the reality is that he's got all his exams done and his experience is limited to a firm where all the work was done via book keeping software, he doesn't seem able to perform the same functions on a very basic level via excel.
Very hard to get staff in this industry and I think I let my fear of them leaving guide me too much.
I don't think you're managing this person correctly and you're being a little stubborn/ignorant.Very hard to get staff in this industry and I think I let my fear of them leaving guide me too much.
Just because he hasn't got the multitude of years of experience compared to you, doesn't mean he isn't correct. You don't 'need' 3 months to decide if something's s
t. Do you wait for your door hinge to squeak for 3 months before you decide to oil it? He's using his experience (just because it's less than your's doesn't make it valuable) to tell you that there are better solutions - don't rubbish that because otherwise what will happen is he'll either a) leave - and then you have to find another person in a difficult industry to hire well in as proved by your other staff or b) he'll stop making suggestions and your business will never get better as you'll always be doing things the inefficient way.
When I joined my current company it was clear from the off that there were significant issues in the finance department (having a room full of managers that aren't qualified accountants nor worked for any other business in 25 years was a tell tale sign...). When you asked why certain things had never been fixed to a newer member of staff you'd get "well I've been saying it since I joined 6 months ago but I've given up when nobody listened and here we are".
Without hearing his suggestions, I'm not saying that this new chap is correct and you're wrong. But what it does appear is that you have a pretty old fashioned (or Moustache Pete as they say) on what could be an employee that ends up being hugely valuable to you in the long-run.
Not having a go at you OP but you do sound like you think you're right in how everything should be done and everyone else is wrong , but I'd also ask, since you say you aren't good as a boss, what would you do if you'd asked for advice here and been given the same responses you give your staff, ie go and find out for yourself or work out how I did it last year?
If you manage and employ staff you have a responsibility to them in the same way as they have a responsibility to you, I think you're missing the first part of that. Managing people requires time and effort and it is part of your job, and it will interfere with what you consider to be your job.
If you manage and employ staff you have a responsibility to them in the same way as they have a responsibility to you, I think you're missing the first part of that. Managing people requires time and effort and it is part of your job, and it will interfere with what you consider to be your job.
Perhaps I am being ignorant but i've had this before where people and change things and then leave, then i'm stuck with trying to work out how they've done their work and sometimes not getting to a conclusion.
I had it on a client that I acquired where the previous accountant sent me the software reports and openly admitted (due to the relevent staff member leaving) he had no idea why the figures are what they were or how they corresponded to the software outputs I had already been given. It's not a situation i'm prepared to have, if there's new software bought in then we all need to know how to use it and therefore that needs to be bought it at a managed time.
I think i'm old fashioned though when it comes to work, I still think we should be able to reconcile accounts, work out VAT, run a basic PL, do accounts and journals manually. I don't want it all done manually obviously, but I think as accounting staff its important to understand what the software is doing. I feel person 3 is just struggling a bit as he doesn't know what the software is doing, he just gets a payable figure and thats that. That's great, but the day that figure doesn't look right you're going to have to take a deeper look and thats when some actual understanding of your function is useful.
Having said all that i'm very grateful for the responses, I 100% need to look at communication and open my mind a bit more to change.
I had it on a client that I acquired where the previous accountant sent me the software reports and openly admitted (due to the relevent staff member leaving) he had no idea why the figures are what they were or how they corresponded to the software outputs I had already been given. It's not a situation i'm prepared to have, if there's new software bought in then we all need to know how to use it and therefore that needs to be bought it at a managed time.
I think i'm old fashioned though when it comes to work, I still think we should be able to reconcile accounts, work out VAT, run a basic PL, do accounts and journals manually. I don't want it all done manually obviously, but I think as accounting staff its important to understand what the software is doing. I feel person 3 is just struggling a bit as he doesn't know what the software is doing, he just gets a payable figure and thats that. That's great, but the day that figure doesn't look right you're going to have to take a deeper look and thats when some actual understanding of your function is useful.
Having said all that i'm very grateful for the responses, I 100% need to look at communication and open my mind a bit more to change.
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