Job (but no Apprenticeship) for a 17 year old.

[BIG MOLE]

My 17yr old son is currently at technical college doing level 1 carpentry. However, an opportunity of a 12mnt+ contract in the building industry has arisen through my brother, working on a project for a developer who said brother has worked for over the years, and who is know to us as a good egg. The work would probably start as labouring but would give him the opportunity to get more involved with the trades as things moved on.

The problem is that the developer, who knows my son, and is keen to give him a job, is in the last 2-3 years of his working life, has significantly scaled down his business, and isn’t offering an apprenticeship. Just an opportunity to learn on the job.

I would be quite happy for my son to knock college on the head. He will learn more in a month on site than he will learn in a year at college, but my understanding is that, until he is 18 (next July) he must be in full time education or an apprenticeship. Apprenticeships are like hens teeth in the building industry, and this might open a few more doors, even if it only lasts for a year.

Is there any way round this, or more to the point, is there any way this can be enforced? What happens if he just tells the college that he isn’t coming in anymore, and just goes out and gets a job?

Also, he would have to register on the CIS scheme, so would effectively be self-employed. I don’t know if this makes things easier, or more problematic.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Edible Roadkill]

https://www.gov.uk/know-when-you-can-leave-school


School leaving age
Your school leaving age depends on where you live.

England

You can leave school on the last Friday in June if you’ll be 16 by the end of the summer holidays.

You must then do one of the following until you’re 18:

stay in full-time education, for example at a college
start an apprenticeship
spend 20 hours or more a week working or volunteering, while in part-time education or training


Think it’s ok so long as he’s working more than 20hrs a week

[Edible Roadkill]

I mean surely there’s not enough college places or apprenticeships for all 16yr olds.

Used to be you done what you wanted when you left school at 16 (15 if enrolling to start uni or college before 16th birthday!)

[MustangGT]

Edible Roadkill said:

https://www.gov.uk/know-when-you-can-leave-school


School leaving age
Your school leaving age depends on where you live.

England

You can leave school on the last Friday in June if you ll be 16 by the end of the summer holidays.

You must then do one of the following until you re 18:

stay in full-time education, for example at a college
start an apprenticeship
spend 20 hours or more a week working or volunteering, while in part-time education or training


Think it s ok so long as he s working more than 20hrs a week

I think you will need to have a training clause in the contract of employment to cover the second part in bold. Part of the job is manual labour and part of the job is receiving training from a qualified craftsman.

[spikeyhead]

Taking the job seems very short sighted.

How much do you learn when labouring?

[BIG MOLE]

spikeyhead said:

Taking the job seems very short sighted.

How much do you learn when labouring?

I don't see it as short sighted at all. The building industry works off of experience and contacts. Things that you gain by going to work, not doing a few hours a week at college, on a course designed to keep youth unemployment figures down, where the attendance of the teaching staff is a lottery.

As for how much do you learn labouring, probably not very much. But if you are working alongside various trades, and they see that you turn up everyday, on time, and work hard, then you are quite likely to get asked to help them out as the job progresses, therefore learning and making contacts.

However, back to my original question. Does anyone know if there are any practical measures that could be taken to stop my son taking on such a role? Not only do I not want him to start something that he can't finish, but I don't want the developer, who, as I've said, is an acquaintance, to be getting grief from the powers that be.

There must be somebody out there who knows a 16-17 year old that just goes to work.

[Monsterdan]

If it’s a few days a week at college can he not do both? Start off as part time working the days or half days that he is not in college and full time during the term weeks off, and then when he has completed his course he can work full time, with a qualification in his pocket.

Is the guy any good at teaching as it’s not natural to all, and labouring without someone who takes the time to show what you have done wrong, how it could be better won’t help apart from the minimum wage in his pocket. Do you know if he has experience of working with teenagers in the past, and does he have sons, as if not that could be quite an adjustment.

Also if the chap is truly running down his business, your son needs to be on the lookout to jump ship reasonably quickly, and how will that sit with the acquaintance?

[Alorotom]

BIG MOLE said:

There must be somebody out there who knows a 16-17 year old that just goes to work.

I do, I know of a couple (and one who employs such too) - mostly friends' kids who had zero interest in education, couldnt wait to leave school and just want to earn.

They work at low skilled/low salary places mostly (hair dressers / sandwich shops / etc.) and they work what would be considered full time.

I understand there is supposedly fines/potential custodials for not undetaking training/education but I think in all reality if the young person is 'economically active' and working then the education aspect can be manipulated to be classed as almost anything - as all jobs require an element of training and development to be functional, safe and efficient.

[BIG MOLE]

Monsterdan said:

Is the guy any good at teaching as it s not natural to all, and labouring without someone who takes the time to show what you have done wrong, how it could be better won t help apart from the minimum wage in his pocket. Do you know if he has experience of working with teenagers in the past, and does he have sons, as if not that could be quite an adjustment.

My son will probably spend much of his time working with the other contractors on the development who, from personal experience and to a man, will likely be staggeringly bad teachers, will give little direction and just moan at him until he gets whatever he is supposed to be doing right. But fear not, he won't be disadvantaged in comparison with his peers as, in my experience, this is almost universal in the building industry, hence the shortage of young trades coming through. He's also worked with some of the contractors before in school holidays, so knows what to expect.

Monsterdan said:

Also if the chap is truly running down his business, your son needs to be on the lookout to jump ship reasonably quickly, and how will that sit with the acquaintance?

Given that almost everyone in the building industry is a self-employed one-man-band, jumping ship, whether forced or otherwise, is not a problem and almost expected.

[shtu]

BIG MOLE said:

I don't see it as short sighted at all. The building industry works off of experience and contacts. Things that you gain by going to work, not doing a few hours a week at college, on a course designed to keep youth unemployment figures down, where the attendance of the teaching staff is a lottery.

I can see you've already decided by the "can anything be done to stop him doing this" phrasing, but he can do the things you mention while also getting apprenticed and gaining qualifications.

Just out of interest, I decided to look for jobs for joiners, in a random part of the UK, I'd say at least half wanted an NVQ Level 2, so by taking this path your son is cut off from a huge part of the market. You can argue all you like about the value of on-the-job experience (and I'd largely agree), but without the bit of paper they won't be considerd for many jobs, and usually those are the jobs with the bigger, better employers.

Generally, people who don't bother to gain qualifications\certifications progress slower and not as far, even in the trades.

IMO, this is the sort of job that has a future in it, not a near cash-in-hand labouring gig. https://jobserve.com/gb/en/JobSearch.aspx?shid=716...

[POIDH]

I would also agree that in future, a basic level of qualification would open a lot of doors. It may be this year, next year, even 5 years, that he can earn on the job as a labourer.
But to get properly trained in a trade would stand him well, open new job doors and likely lead to earning more money long term.
Stick at college, get the job later.

[Ry.Clarke]

Some experience is better than no experience. It’s relevant as he’s on site, it teaches him the soft skills of being employed and he gets a nice paycheck to go towards his DL, which any apprenticeship will want I imagine.

Walking straight into an apprenticeship is a myth, especially at level 1. Get him working towards being a better candidate