Clocking-In App, GPS, Personal Phone etc

[Slipperman]

Hi all,

A friend of mine has been asked (told) to download an App for clocking in and out of work.
There is a small team she works with and all have been told the same.

This isn't something that is in her Contract Of Employment.

What if no memory on the phone to download app?
Or old phone?
Non-Smart Phone
Or phone forgotten/flat?
This obviously means getting to work early to perform 'duties' of employment (using the App) and staying later, but there (so far) has been no mention of how it works regarding that (or anything).

No info yet but it was mentioned some time ago that if a minute late then lose an hour.
I realise 15 minutes may be the 'norm'...but...then again, if clocking out a minute late may mean being paid an hour extra? Of course not.

I guess Employer could provide a phone but of course that needs charging and becomes a liability if lost etc.

Thoughts, experiences please.
Thanks in advance.

[Jazoli]

I’d advise against it and ask them to provide a phone, there is no obligation to put anything work related on a personal mobile, also issues if they have security policies that means they could potentially wipe the phone.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

Jazoli said:

I d advise against it and ask them to provide a phone, there is no obligation to put anything work related on a personal mobile, also issues if they have security policies that means they could potentially wipe the phone.

A tiny firm (sounds like hospitality retail or warehouse) won’t be using MDM on the phone - it’s a single app.

You can tell them you don’t want to do it but they might get binned.

The minute late lose an hour thing is bks and every modern bit of clock in clock out software cab be much more granular - it’s a config choice!

[Slipperman]

Thank you all so far...

I believe the 'lose an hour' quote sets the tone for how the employees mentioned can sometimes be 'treated'.

Also, she's been verbally informed the App is to be opened upon arrival at work and only closed when leaving - meaning being 'tracked' whislt at work for entire duration.

Having looked at App's such as this then this does not comply with GDPR (in my opinion).

Supplying a 'work' phone is not something the company wish to do.

It appears to be a Company-wide initiative where there will always be a percentage of people who comply, and of course there are no details (in writing) of how it actually works.
The "we're all doing it too" line was trotted out as well.

[Jasandjules]

It falls to what she wants to do. If her line in the sand is not to have an app on her private phone (which in my view is an unreasonable request from the employer) then she tells them no. Then awaits developments. But she needs to decide whether she intends to remain .....

[Ashfordian]

Slipperman said:

Thank you all so far...

I believe the 'lose an hour' quote sets the tone for how the employees mentioned can sometimes be 'treated'.

Also, she's been verbally informed the App is to be opened upon arrival at work and only closed when leaving - meaning being 'tracked' whislt at work for entire duration.

Having looked at App's such as this then this does not comply with GDPR (in my opinion).

Supplying a 'work' phone is not something the company wish to do.

It appears to be a Company-wide initiative where there will always be a percentage of people who comply, and of course there are no details (in writing) of how it actually works.
The "we're all doing it too" line was trotted out as well.

What industry is this in?

It sounds like to me that this app will be monitoring phone use while it is open. Can't really blame companies for taking this approach as I'm sure they can see the amount of time some employees spend on their phones during company time. I'm actually surprised I've not heard of this sooner.

However, in this situation I personally would be turning up for work with an old Nokia and claiming to be on a digital detox since the new year!

[CHLEMCBC]

Ashfordian said:

Can't really blame companies for taking this approach as I'm sure they can see the amount of time some employees spend on their phones during company time. I'm actually surprised I've not heard of this sooner.

This is what managers are for.

[21TonyK]

For a few months, I worked for a company that had an app like this where they expected all staff to "clock in" and "clock out".

Like I say, I worked for them for a few months.

[MustangGT]

Jazoli said:

I d advise against it and ask them to provide a phone, there is no obligation to put anything work related on a personal mobile, also issues if they have security policies that means they could potentially wipe the phone.

This.

Also, if the late by a minute lose an hour is correct the simple solution is if you are going to be late, go and do the shopping on the way in and be 59 minutes late, instead of 1 or 2.

[55palfers]

MustangGT said:

This.

Also, if the late by a minute lose an hour is correct the simple solution is if you are going to be late, go and do the shopping on the way in and be 59 minutes late, instead of 1 or 2.

If you are delayed leaving work (to finish a task) by a few minutes do you get an extra hours pay?

[Slipperman]

55palfers said:

MustangGT said:

This.

Also, if the late by a minute lose an hour is correct the simple solution is if you are going to be late, go and do the shopping on the way in and be 59 minutes late, instead of 1 or 2.

If you are delayed leaving work (to finish a task) by a few minutes do you get an extra hours pay?

That is what I jokingly posed in my original post - about it working 'that way' and I answered "of course not".

Thanks for replies so far.

Just to anser a few questions etc:
The industry is Cleaning.
Business 'model' is 'The Cleaning Company' secures a new contract, could be a school, factory, gym etc and they then staff it (if lucky) and the employees have no supervision, no guidance etc.
Managed remotely. Trained by being told Client has complained because people were not aware they had to do whatever caused the complaint.

'The Cleaning Company' have previously not replaced staff who have left, leaving less people to do the work, in the same time...but Client is charged the same. Client pays for 3 staff but 'The Cleaning Company' only pay wages to 2 staff.
Also, phone number of Cleaner given to Client (with no consultation) and the first thing Cleaner knew was a Whatsapp message and video about how the alarm may be programmed differently. GDPR? Is that hairspray?

My thoughts (there are many) include that there will always be people who (for whatever reason) fail to clock in, or out, might be a problem with the App, who knows? But...the work will get done, the Client is Invoiced, but the poor person who (for whatever reason) did not/could not clock in/out BUT did the work but now won't get paid.

So 'The Cleaning Company' benefits...again

Whilst I understand staff should not be on their phones at work, this App will not determine if that is, or isn't the case.

It is never-ending really. Phone may run out of charge, network problem, phone locked in building after locking up...Area 51 stuff

Edited by Slipperman on Saturday 10th January 20:45

[Frane Selak]

Spoof the GPS and clock in from the beach.

[rufmeister]

I own a cleaning company, I’d like to add weight/justification from the employers side, as we run similar software, but there seems quite a heavy difference of opinion based on the current replies, so I will refrain and take note of the previous and any future responses, as it’s not anything we’ve ever had any objections to, but interesting to see there are objections and the tone of those.

[Slipperman]

rufmeister said:

I own a cleaning company, I d like to add weight/justification from the employers side, as we run similar software, but there seems quite a heavy difference of opinion based on the current replies, so I will refrain and take note of the previous and any future responses, as it s not anything we ve ever had any objections to, but interesting to see there are objections and the tone of those.

Interesting reply...I guess it depends on how you run your company and how you go about implenting change, or wishing to implement change, and why these 'measures' (in your experience) were deemed neccesary?

I feel it could be justified if there were problems with attendance, timekeeping etc.

[rufmeister]

Slipperman said:

Interesting reply...I guess it depends on how you run your company and how you go about implenting change, or wishing to implement change, and why these 'measures' (in your experience) were deemed neccesary?

I feel it could be justified if there were problems with attendance, timekeeping etc.

Hard to respond without coming across wrong, but I will try.

We have contracts that are 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, so pretty much impossible to manage everyone and monitor absolutely everyone’s attendance, as sites can be remote, or far away from our base, and simply not profitable enough to have support staff or management available.

Cleaning is such a low paid and low valued industry, that in order to be compete you have to pay low wages, unsocial hours, unskilled industry, therefore you don’t get blessed with a wide choice of high calibre candidates.

We have been and still are, victim to people letting us down, fraudulent clocking of hours etc, so we use a gps geofenced based system to try and minimise the abuse, but it’s not bullet proof, people work out ways around it, such as clocking in from outside the building, then not actually working, getting their mate to log in their account and clock in, and sharing wages, or doing turns..etc.

Clients want to employ the cheapest supplier, but expect the highest level of service, and are very quick to point the finger, so with theses time and attendance systems, we can send them a summary alongside their invoice, and that evidences their charge. This in turn reduces disputes, delayed payments, etc, which are often crippling when you’re on a 5% net profit low value contract.

Hopefully I’ve explained it from an employers perspective, I don’t expect full agreement, but hope it gives you a better idea of what we are faced with

[Jasandjules]

rufmeister said:

I own a cleaning company, I d like to add weight/justification from the employers side, as we run similar software, but there seems quite a heavy difference of opinion based on the current replies, so I will refrain and take note of the previous and any future responses, as it s not anything we ve ever had any objections to, but interesting to see there are objections and the tone of those.

Then you provide a phone. There is no justification to seek to use an employee's personal phone at all. You want something for business use? Then supply it, it is really that simple is it not?

[CoolHands]

Buy a cheap secondhand phone off ebay and stick it on that. Clock in from home

[rufmeister]

Jasandjules said:

Then you provide a phone. There is no justification to seek to use an employee's personal phone at all. You want something for business use? Then supply it, it is really that simple is it not?

Not really, no.

It all seems a bit tinfoil hattery, it’s just a simple app, it’s not stealing your data. If employees can’t be trusted to turn up for work, you’re hardly going to provide them a phone?

We could always use biometric time and attendance devices I guess, but no doubt there would be issues with that.

[Wheelspinning]

Ram that...Plenty other jobs available.

[ridds]

rufmeister said:

Slipperman said:

Interesting reply...I guess it depends on how you run your company and how you go about implenting change, or wishing to implement change, and why these 'measures' (in your experience) were deemed neccesary?

I feel it could be justified if there were problems with attendance, timekeeping etc.

Hard to respond without coming across wrong, but I will try.

We have contracts that are 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, so pretty much impossible to manage everyone and monitor absolutely everyone s attendance, as sites can be remote, or far away from our base, and simply not profitable enough to have support staff or management available.

Cleaning is such a low paid and low valued industry, that in order to be compete you have to pay low wages, unsocial hours, unskilled industry, therefore you don t get blessed with a wide choice of high calibre candidates.

We have been and still are, victim to people letting us down, fraudulent clocking of hours etc, so we use a gps geofenced based system to try and minimise the abuse, but it s not bullet proof, people work out ways around it, such as clocking in from outside the building, then not actually working, getting their mate to log in their account and clock in, and sharing wages, or doing turns..etc.

Clients want to employ the cheapest supplier, but expect the highest level of service, and are very quick to point the finger, so with theses time and attendance systems, we can send them a summary alongside their invoice, and that evidences their charge. This in turn reduces disputes, delayed payments, etc, which are often crippling when you re on a 5% net profit low value contract.

Hopefully I ve explained it from an employers perspective, I don t expect full agreement, but hope it gives you a better idea of what we are faced with

Do you provide the device to run the App though?

I think this is one of the sticking points here. Providing the cheapest handset possible to run the attendance App as a condition of employment can't really be argued with. You start the day, the device gets turned on and then off when you have finished.

I won't have company software on my personal device. I learnt that lesson back when someone in IT clicked a button within Outlook Admin and forced my device to use a password. I didn't have one previously set and the phone was then stuck on a the Lock Screen thus Bricked my phone and I lost a lot of data.