Career advice - Manager relationship
Discussion
I have got a query about professional/personal development and the expectations in the relationship between employee and manager.
How much does your manager care about your professional/personal development? How much do you care about the same for your employees? Do you have frequent discussions and is any guidance communicated? Do you have a set up and make any progress?
I am not talking about new starters in corporate and not where the manager has no idea what the employee is doing - some it projects etc
Having found myself into uncomfortable situation I decided to plug into the hive mind for advice.
I feel that for a while I havent worked for anyone that gives a poop about my career outside of direct relationship. I would like to understand what is normal and what steps I need to take next
My current manager cares a lot as have previous ones. I however have never gave a crap as my career has advanced regardless through the work. I don't see the point in a manager for myself. Most seem to think I am easy to manage though and super laid back. I'm not sure, I just know my value isn't meeting random goals but actually earning money, seems to be the opposite for some staff.
Edited by Saudade on Saturday 4th July 19:50
borcy said:
I suppose it varies wildly. In organisations that are bottom fed you'd see lots more focus on career development as they are forced.
If you're in a small family business then generally it'll be the complete opposite.
What are you looking for in terms of help for your career?
I have no idea what is normal in terms of career progression at my age and my experience. If you're in a small family business then generally it'll be the complete opposite.
What are you looking for in terms of help for your career?
No idea what I need to do to be ready for the next stage and what my development blockers are. And Idk what the next stage actually is.
I cannot be promoted in my department. So not sure what I neeed to do to get to the next stage. Other department/company? Doesnt solve for the above uncertainty of what I need to do
A huge amount will depend on the size of the organisation. Often there’s not much room for professional development in a 3-man team, you can’t all be managers. Equally personal development often comes from the individual, through seeking additional responsibilities or undertaking self-improvement in various ways.
In my (reasonably broad) experience, those employees being the most vocal about being given set goals for professional advancement and funding for personal development (training courses etc) tend to be those who aren’t keeping up with their peers on those fronts through personal limitations. However, a good manager would point out those limitations via structured feedback/assessment sessions.
No employee should be surprised by the content of an annual review/appraisal - they should be made aware throughout the year of any issues or opportunities for improvement. But there are always some employees who think they’re amazing on all fronts and simply can’t understand or take constructive criticism.
In my (reasonably broad) experience, those employees being the most vocal about being given set goals for professional advancement and funding for personal development (training courses etc) tend to be those who aren’t keeping up with their peers on those fronts through personal limitations. However, a good manager would point out those limitations via structured feedback/assessment sessions.
No employee should be surprised by the content of an annual review/appraisal - they should be made aware throughout the year of any issues or opportunities for improvement. But there are always some employees who think they’re amazing on all fronts and simply can’t understand or take constructive criticism.
Blue_star said:
borcy said:
I suppose it varies wildly. In organisations that are bottom fed you'd see lots more focus on career development as they are forced.
If you're in a small family business then generally it'll be the complete opposite.
What are you looking for in terms of help for your career?
I have no idea what is normal in terms of career progression at my age and my experience. If you're in a small family business then generally it'll be the complete opposite.
What are you looking for in terms of help for your career?
No idea what I need to do to be ready for the next stage and what my development blockers are. And Idk what the next stage actually is.
I cannot be promoted in my department. So not sure what I neeed to do to get to the next stage. Other department/company? Doesnt solve for the above uncertainty of what I need to do
Blue_star said:
I have no idea what is normal in terms of career progression at my age and my experience.
No idea what I need to do to be ready for the next stage and what my development blockers are. And Idk what the next stage actually is.
I cannot be promoted in my department. So not sure what I neeed to do to get to the next stage. Other department/company? Doesnt solve for the above uncertainty of what I need to do
What industry are you in? Have you actually asked any of these questions to your manager? Do you have an annual performance review, objectives, a mid-year review, regular one-to-one meetings etc?No idea what I need to do to be ready for the next stage and what my development blockers are. And Idk what the next stage actually is.
I cannot be promoted in my department. So not sure what I neeed to do to get to the next stage. Other department/company? Doesnt solve for the above uncertainty of what I need to do
In my experience, it's normal for you to have to do your own development planning based on manager/peer feedback - this feedback often has to be explicitly sought.
Once you have your plan, work with your manager to be given tasks/assignments/experiences that will help you work to this plan.
Then, when your plan is done, you're in a good position to discuss career progression, as you're then able to evidence the progress you've made.
I've simplified it massively, but that's the general idea.
Personally, I have the opposite problem in that I keep being pushed to apply for promotions that I don't actually want. Being promoted further would only bring with it more stress and take me away from the work that I enjoy doing. Trying to explain to directors that you don't want it is interesting - as they're all very career-driven people they literally can't comprehend that not everybody wants that.
Once you have your plan, work with your manager to be given tasks/assignments/experiences that will help you work to this plan.
Then, when your plan is done, you're in a good position to discuss career progression, as you're then able to evidence the progress you've made.
I've simplified it massively, but that's the general idea.
Personally, I have the opposite problem in that I keep being pushed to apply for promotions that I don't actually want. Being promoted further would only bring with it more stress and take me away from the work that I enjoy doing. Trying to explain to directors that you don't want it is interesting - as they're all very career-driven people they literally can't comprehend that not everybody wants that.
It's difficult to say exactly without knowing the career you're in and the size of the team/firm.
I've managed several IT teams and I was lucky the CIO I worked with was like me and wanted to move people on with their careers. It's often something that people struggle with, especially when there isn't a definitive path. I work in IT and have managed to become a head of IT but there was no clear route to that. By contrast I've worked at law and accountancy firms which are very structure and with hard work and time, you can work your way to partnership.
One thing I would say OP is that it's easier for managers to be caught up in the day to day, month to month so there is no harm asking about training or progression.
I've managed several IT teams and I was lucky the CIO I worked with was like me and wanted to move people on with their careers. It's often something that people struggle with, especially when there isn't a definitive path. I work in IT and have managed to become a head of IT but there was no clear route to that. By contrast I've worked at law and accountancy firms which are very structure and with hard work and time, you can work your way to partnership.
One thing I would say OP is that it's easier for managers to be caught up in the day to day, month to month so there is no harm asking about training or progression.
PhilboSE said:
In my (reasonably broad) experience, those employees being the most vocal about being given set goals for professional advancement and funding for personal development (training courses etc) tend to be those who aren t keeping up with their peers on those fronts through personal limitations. However, a good manager would point out those limitations via structured feedback/assessment sessions.
I'd expand that a little in two ways,Some people lack the vision (terrible word) to understand what is required without being explicitly told. An awful lot of being ready/capable/suitable for promotion is the ability to not need to be told what's required, but to see it, understand it and do it. A development plan is perhaps best approached by the person doing the work to find out what will help, and propose it. Not wait to be told.
Also, some people treat personal development as a box ticking exercise, literally "I have completed the tasks and development set out in my plan, so I am now due a promotion." and it just doesn't work like that.
I know one person who is -incredibly- career focused. Has a 5 year career plan, always asks a question in the closing minutes of a call so you know they're present, all that sort of thing. However, I also know he's not being promoted any time soon. Unfortunately, his personality has annoyed almost everyone around him, and he lacks the maturity and professionalism required to actually deal with more seniority.
I don't think there is a "normal". Varies hugely between companies. Some have a culture where managers are absolutely expected to be on top of this stuff and they are assessed against it. Some claim to have such a culture but just go through the motions (e.g. pointless mandatory training, pro forma settings of objectives for personal development that no one ever tracks). And some don't even pretend (which is fine). It's the middle of the two extremes where you waste your time on performative crap that achieves nothing that's the real problem. Wastes time and delivers disappointment, cynicism and disengagement. Much better to know you're on your own and need to drive things yourself than to be fobbed off.
Edited by ATG on Saturday 4th July 17:04
legless said:
Personally, I have the opposite problem in that I keep being pushed to apply for promotions that I don't actually want. Being promoted further would only bring with it more stress and take me away from the work that I enjoy doing. Trying to explain to directors that you don't want it is interesting - as they're all very career-driven people they literally can't comprehend that not everybody wants that.
I have the same issue, I’ve got about 7 years until I can retire, have annual performance reviews which always say I exceed expectations and no issues raised but there’s always a section on development and promotion and I always say no thank you, the powers above me are big on development and promotion and it’s an issue every year I just want to be allowed to continue as I am. Thankfully my direct line manager writes something up for it and I continue as I am.
There’s a section where I’m supposed to comment on my review and I never do, this year I put a full stop in the box because it wouldn’t accept me leaving it blank.
I don’t believe anyone really cares it’s just a corporate admin thing but it’s annoying every year.
Jamescrs said:
legless said:
Personally, I have the opposite problem in that I keep being pushed to apply for promotions that I don't actually want. Being promoted further would only bring with it more stress and take me away from the work that I enjoy doing. Trying to explain to directors that you don't want it is interesting - as they're all very career-driven people they literally can't comprehend that not everybody wants that.
I have the same issue, I ve got about 7 years until I can retire, have annual performance reviews which always say I exceed expectations and no issues raised but there s always a section on development and promotion and I always say no thank you, the powers above me are big on development and promotion and it s an issue every year I just want to be allowed to continue as I am. Thankfully my direct line manager writes something up for it and I continue as I am.
There s a section where I m supposed to comment on my review and I never do, this year I put a full stop in the box because it wouldn t accept me leaving it blank.
I don t believe anyone really cares it s just a corporate admin thing but it s annoying every year.
Long way off retirement for me, but I'm exactly who I want to be, where I want to be.
borcy said:
Blue_star said:
borcy said:
I suppose it varies wildly. In organisations that are bottom fed you'd see lots more focus on career development as they are forced.
If you're in a small family business then generally it'll be the complete opposite.
What are you looking for in terms of help for your career?
I have no idea what is normal in terms of career progression at my age and my experience. If you're in a small family business then generally it'll be the complete opposite.
What are you looking for in terms of help for your career?
No idea what I need to do to be ready for the next stage and what my development blockers are. And Idk what the next stage actually is.
I cannot be promoted in my department. So not sure what I neeed to do to get to the next stage. Other department/company? Doesnt solve for the above uncertainty of what I need to do
I have worked in the 10-15 years time band. I have done same job 2 years plus. Done my time although cant say i have learned everything inside out.
I hope I didnt miss any detail but let me know?
InitialDave said:
Jamescrs said:
legless said:
Personally, I have the opposite problem in that I keep being pushed to apply for promotions that I don't actually want. Being promoted further would only bring with it more stress and take me away from the work that I enjoy doing. Trying to explain to directors that you don't want it is interesting - as they're all very career-driven people they literally can't comprehend that not everybody wants that.
I have the same issue, I ve got about 7 years until I can retire, have annual performance reviews which always say I exceed expectations and no issues raised but there s always a section on development and promotion and I always say no thank you, the powers above me are big on development and promotion and it s an issue every year I just want to be allowed to continue as I am. Thankfully my direct line manager writes something up for it and I continue as I am.
There s a section where I m supposed to comment on my review and I never do, this year I put a full stop in the box because it wouldn t accept me leaving it blank.
I don t believe anyone really cares it s just a corporate admin thing but it s annoying every year.
Long way off retirement for me, but I'm exactly who I want to be, where I want to be.
k that. I like my team, my office, and my patch. PhilboSE said:
A huge amount will depend on the size of the organisation. Often there s not much room for professional development in a 3-man team, you can t all be managers. Equally personal development often comes from the individual, through seeking additional responsibilities or undertaking self-improvement in various ways.
In my (reasonably broad) experience, those employees being the most vocal about being given set goals for professional advancement and funding for personal development (training courses etc) tend to be those who aren t keeping up with their peers on those fronts through personal limitations. However, a good manager would point out those limitations via structured feedback/assessment sessions.
No employee should be surprised by the content of an annual review/appraisal - they should be made aware throughout the year of any issues or opportunities for improvement. But there are always some employees who think they re amazing on all fronts and simply can t understand or take constructive criticism.
I am somewhat worries about your point on personal limitations. I am seeking feedback and dont tens to get any negative feedback (or gets over my head).In my (reasonably broad) experience, those employees being the most vocal about being given set goals for professional advancement and funding for personal development (training courses etc) tend to be those who aren t keeping up with their peers on those fronts through personal limitations. However, a good manager would point out those limitations via structured feedback/assessment sessions.
No employee should be surprised by the content of an annual review/appraisal - they should be made aware throughout the year of any issues or opportunities for improvement. But there are always some employees who think they re amazing on all fronts and simply can t understand or take constructive criticism.
Blue_star said:
Large company with multiple locations and hundreds of employees. Manager is in another office. I would never be doing his job.
I have worked in the 10-15 years time band. I have done same job 2 years plus. Done my time although cant say i have learned everything inside out.
I hope I didnt miss any detail but let me know?
Thanks.I have worked in the 10-15 years time band. I have done same job 2 years plus. Done my time although cant say i have learned everything inside out.
I hope I didnt miss any detail but let me know?
I wouldn't say a company with employees in the hundreds is particularly large.
that limits your opportunity to some extent. I think with your manager located elsewhere you'll always struggle with them getting too involved in your career. How many people does your manager manage and across how many sites?
What do you want, career progression? If so can you see yourself any job in the company but next level up.
Mastodon2 said:
Blue_star said:
I have no idea what is normal in terms of career progression at my age and my experience.
No idea what I need to do to be ready for the next stage and what my development blockers are. And Idk what the next stage actually is.
I cannot be promoted in my department. So not sure what I neeed to do to get to the next stage. Other department/company? Doesnt solve for the above uncertainty of what I need to do
What industry are you in? Have you actually asked any of these questions to your manager? Do you have an annual performance review, objectives, a mid-year review, regular one-to-one meetings etc?No idea what I need to do to be ready for the next stage and what my development blockers are. And Idk what the next stage actually is.
I cannot be promoted in my department. So not sure what I neeed to do to get to the next stage. Other department/company? Doesnt solve for the above uncertainty of what I need to do
When I spoke about promotion there was mention of something might be in the pipeline for next year. Process Not under his direct control. I had a bump up so happy that way.
No regular one to ones
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff