Law firms, training contracts and changing my career
Discussion
I really want a change of work - I'm a web developer by trade and I hate every minute of it. I can't really cope with being sat all day bored with a pointless to-do list. I really need something challenging, where I learn new things, I'm never sat around bored, and work really has a reward associated with it (I don't mean financial).
So I have been investigating other careers. Is it worth looking at working toward a commercial law career? I am late 20s and happy to start over. With a non-law degree, but a reasonable amount of commercial experience, I'm obviously starting at a different level to a lot of graduates - how will that affect me ?
Obviously I'll go and research it myself, but from those PHers that have been through it, what's the first few years like?
If I have described the law career perfectly in my first paragraph then feel free to suggest other careers
So I have been investigating other careers. Is it worth looking at working toward a commercial law career? I am late 20s and happy to start over. With a non-law degree, but a reasonable amount of commercial experience, I'm obviously starting at a different level to a lot of graduates - how will that affect me ?
Obviously I'll go and research it myself, but from those PHers that have been through it, what's the first few years like?
If I have described the law career perfectly in my first paragraph then feel free to suggest other careers
Edited by essayer on Friday 11th December 20:20
essayer said:
I really want a change of work - I'm a web developer by trade and I hate every minute of it. I can't really cope with being sat all day bored with a pointless to-do list. I really need something challenging, where I learn new things, I'm never sat around bored, and work really has a reward associated with it (I don't mean financial).
So I have been investigating other careers. Is it worth looking at working toward a commercial law career? I am late 20s and happy to start over. With a non-law degree, but a reasonable amount of commercial experience, I'm obviously starting at a different level to a lot of graduates - how will that affect me ?
Obviously I'll go and research it myself, but from those PHers that have been through it, what's the first few years like?
If I have described the law career perfectly in my first paragraph then feel free to suggest other careers
Do you have a first from Oxbridge? Is your daddy a senior partner?So I have been investigating other careers. Is it worth looking at working toward a commercial law career? I am late 20s and happy to start over. With a non-law degree, but a reasonable amount of commercial experience, I'm obviously starting at a different level to a lot of graduates - how will that affect me ?
Obviously I'll go and research it myself, but from those PHers that have been through it, what's the first few years like?
If I have described the law career perfectly in my first paragraph then feel free to suggest other careers
Edited by essayer on Friday 11th December 20:20
If you can answer 'yes' to one of these questions then you will find a training contract.
I looked at doing this a long time ago
Law Degree + LPC = 4 years out of work. Then, a training contract (if you can get one) for another 2 years (on a trainee's salary).
I found out that the big plus is that Law firms (then) liked/wanted/needed people with commercial experience, the big minus is that there is no real short cut...
Your decision....
essayer said:
I really want a change of work - I'm a web developer by trade and I hate every minute of it. I can't really cope with being sat all day bored with a pointless to-do list. I really need something challenging, where I learn new things, I'm never sat around bored, and work really has a reward associated with it (I don't mean financial).
So I have been investigating other careers. Is it worth looking at working toward a commercial law career? I am late 20s and happy to start over. With a non-law degree, but a reasonable amount of commercial experience, I'm obviously starting at a different level to a lot of graduates - how will that affect me ?
Obviously I'll go and research it myself, but from those PHers that have been through it, what's the first few years like?
If I have described the law career perfectly in my first paragraph then feel free to suggest other careers
If you can afford to take 2 years off (1 year conversion plus 1 year LPC if you're looking at becoming a solicitor) and spend £16K+ on course fees on the basis that you might be in with a chance then go for it. Do plenty of research beforehand and be aware that this year some firms have either been cancelling training contracts or 'asking' those with contracts to defer them for a year so supply will exceed demand for some time to come. If you're thinking about the Bar as opposed to being a solicitor the position is similar except the costs are higher, the competition much fiercer, and the oversupply a lot higher (but don't let that put you off).So I have been investigating other careers. Is it worth looking at working toward a commercial law career? I am late 20s and happy to start over. With a non-law degree, but a reasonable amount of commercial experience, I'm obviously starting at a different level to a lot of graduates - how will that affect me ?
Obviously I'll go and research it myself, but from those PHers that have been through it, what's the first few years like?
If I have described the law career perfectly in my first paragraph then feel free to suggest other careers
Edited by essayer on Friday 11th December 20:20
Both CPE (or whatever they're calling it this week) and LPC can be done part time whilst working so no need to take 2 years out to study, although they will of course take longer to do part time. May ease the paycut to trainee's salary though as it would give you an income while you were studying, and provide time to save ahead of moving to trainee money.
musclecarmad said:
From my experience it is that someone like Zod is near the top of his profession and will have worked his socks off to get there and very few people get to that stage.
Becoming a solicitor the normal route involves a 3 year degree, a one year LPC and then 2 more years of training (on a lowly salary and being looked upon as the junior)
It takes many years to work up to being a partner in a big firm and a lot of hard work in an office environment and a lot of stress.
The money isn't really worth it in my opinion and outside of london the salaries tend to be small generally speaking.
A trainee in say Leeds can earn between apx £17,000 to nearly £30,000 at a big regional firm and when qualified it can be something from £24,000 up to about £45,000 outside of london.
Working for a magic circle law firm in London or one of the niche firms can pay very very well BUT the work is hard.
Jobs with company cars tend to be a big perk but no law firm I have come across give you a company car or final salary pension and the sick pay tends to be poor although some firms have some good benefits.
Each to their own - don't look at Zod's DB9 and think that every solicitor has one, because very few do!!
Do qualified lawyers really only earn £24k to £45k outside of London?Becoming a solicitor the normal route involves a 3 year degree, a one year LPC and then 2 more years of training (on a lowly salary and being looked upon as the junior)
It takes many years to work up to being a partner in a big firm and a lot of hard work in an office environment and a lot of stress.
The money isn't really worth it in my opinion and outside of london the salaries tend to be small generally speaking.
A trainee in say Leeds can earn between apx £17,000 to nearly £30,000 at a big regional firm and when qualified it can be something from £24,000 up to about £45,000 outside of london.
Working for a magic circle law firm in London or one of the niche firms can pay very very well BUT the work is hard.
Jobs with company cars tend to be a big perk but no law firm I have come across give you a company car or final salary pension and the sick pay tends to be poor although some firms have some good benefits.
Each to their own - don't look at Zod's DB9 and think that every solicitor has one, because very few do!!
musclecarmad said:
Olivera said:
musclecarmad said:
From my experience it is that someone like Zod is near the top of his profession and will have worked his socks off to get there and very few people get to that stage.
Becoming a solicitor the normal route involves a 3 year degree, a one year LPC and then 2 more years of training (on a lowly salary and being looked upon as the junior)
It takes many years to work up to being a partner in a big firm and a lot of hard work in an office environment and a lot of stress.
The money isn't really worth it in my opinion and outside of london the salaries tend to be small generally speaking.
A trainee in say Leeds can earn between apx £17,000 to nearly £30,000 at a big regional firm and when qualified it can be something from £24,000 up to about £45,000 outside of london.
Working for a magic circle law firm in London or one of the niche firms can pay very very well BUT the work is hard.
Jobs with company cars tend to be a big perk but no law firm I have come across give you a company car or final salary pension and the sick pay tends to be poor although some firms have some good benefits.
Each to their own - don't look at Zod's DB9 and think that every solicitor has one, because very few do!!
Do qualified lawyers really only earn £24k to £45k outside of London?Becoming a solicitor the normal route involves a 3 year degree, a one year LPC and then 2 more years of training (on a lowly salary and being looked upon as the junior)
It takes many years to work up to being a partner in a big firm and a lot of hard work in an office environment and a lot of stress.
The money isn't really worth it in my opinion and outside of london the salaries tend to be small generally speaking.
A trainee in say Leeds can earn between apx £17,000 to nearly £30,000 at a big regional firm and when qualified it can be something from £24,000 up to about £45,000 outside of london.
Working for a magic circle law firm in London or one of the niche firms can pay very very well BUT the work is hard.
Jobs with company cars tend to be a big perk but no law firm I have come across give you a company car or final salary pension and the sick pay tends to be poor although some firms have some good benefits.
Each to their own - don't look at Zod's DB9 and think that every solicitor has one, because very few do!!
At a small local solicitors in say halifax or huddersfield you may get £24-£28k if you have around 5 years PQE
A big firm in Leeds with a few years PQE under your belt you may be looking at £42-£45k.
If you work for a big regional company in say leeds, manchester or sheffield and have ten years PQE you may progress to a senior level and earn more but this is ten plus years off for the OP.
A good freind of mine is due to go to a 'Magic Cirle' firm, and his starting salary is nearer 40k from what he says, so it might be nearer 35 in reality, but its a damn site better than the figures you mention. If the curve is so steep in London why do people put up with it elsewhere?
I did this. I went to Uni in my late 20's to do a law degree and then LPC. OP, as said as you have a degree you are looking at CPE an then LPC (or whatever it is now called).
Yes, salaries outside of London are in the region quoted, even in large regional centres like Bristol. It depends what area of law you go into, commercial rates are usually higher, property was higher until there weren't any jobs! PI, family, resi conveyancing etc. are usually more poorly paid. Many firms aren't awarding payrises this year for the second year running so salaries are moving backwards.
Training contracts are incredibly difficult to get and that was before the recent problems. Year on year there are a huge number of LPC graduates being added to the pool looking for training contracts. I was lucky, I got mine because I was working part time for a firm. Things are really really difficult currently, even for people with really good grades. It may be that in a couple of years the economy will have picked up and there will be more opportunities but there will still be a huge pool of LPC grad's fighting for those roles.
Much as people like Zod will say that they value commercial experience, my experience was that HR departments work a standard sifting method focussed on A level grades. Many law firms like "normal" grads that they can mold to fit their idea of the ideal lawyer. As a non standard graduate IMV you will struggle unless your experience is very attractive.
You don't really say why you want to be a solicitor, only why you don't like what you are doing?
I'm not best placed to comment at the moment as a redeployed property lawyer - my views are more negative than they might have been otherwise but I'm not entirely sure I'd recommend this as a career path.
Yes, salaries outside of London are in the region quoted, even in large regional centres like Bristol. It depends what area of law you go into, commercial rates are usually higher, property was higher until there weren't any jobs! PI, family, resi conveyancing etc. are usually more poorly paid. Many firms aren't awarding payrises this year for the second year running so salaries are moving backwards.
Training contracts are incredibly difficult to get and that was before the recent problems. Year on year there are a huge number of LPC graduates being added to the pool looking for training contracts. I was lucky, I got mine because I was working part time for a firm. Things are really really difficult currently, even for people with really good grades. It may be that in a couple of years the economy will have picked up and there will be more opportunities but there will still be a huge pool of LPC grad's fighting for those roles.
Much as people like Zod will say that they value commercial experience, my experience was that HR departments work a standard sifting method focussed on A level grades. Many law firms like "normal" grads that they can mold to fit their idea of the ideal lawyer. As a non standard graduate IMV you will struggle unless your experience is very attractive.
You don't really say why you want to be a solicitor, only why you don't like what you are doing?
I'm not best placed to comment at the moment as a redeployed property lawyer - my views are more negative than they might have been otherwise but I'm not entirely sure I'd recommend this as a career path.
musclecarmad said:
okgo said:
musclecarmad said:
Olivera said:
musclecarmad said:
From my experience it is that someone like Zod is near the top of his profession and will have worked his socks off to get there and very few people get to that stage.
Becoming a solicitor the normal route involves a 3 year degree, a one year LPC and then 2 more years of training (on a lowly salary and being looked upon as the junior)
It takes many years to work up to being a partner in a big firm and a lot of hard work in an office environment and a lot of stress.
The money isn't really worth it in my opinion and outside of london the salaries tend to be small generally speaking.
A trainee in say Leeds can earn between apx £17,000 to nearly £30,000 at a big regional firm and when qualified it can be something from £24,000 up to about £45,000 outside of london.
Working for a magic circle law firm in London or one of the niche firms can pay very very well BUT the work is hard.
Jobs with company cars tend to be a big perk but no law firm I have come across give you a company car or final salary pension and the sick pay tends to be poor although some firms have some good benefits.
Each to their own - don't look at Zod's DB9 and think that every solicitor has one, because very few do!!
Do qualified lawyers really only earn £24k to £45k outside of London?Becoming a solicitor the normal route involves a 3 year degree, a one year LPC and then 2 more years of training (on a lowly salary and being looked upon as the junior)
It takes many years to work up to being a partner in a big firm and a lot of hard work in an office environment and a lot of stress.
The money isn't really worth it in my opinion and outside of london the salaries tend to be small generally speaking.
A trainee in say Leeds can earn between apx £17,000 to nearly £30,000 at a big regional firm and when qualified it can be something from £24,000 up to about £45,000 outside of london.
Working for a magic circle law firm in London or one of the niche firms can pay very very well BUT the work is hard.
Jobs with company cars tend to be a big perk but no law firm I have come across give you a company car or final salary pension and the sick pay tends to be poor although some firms have some good benefits.
Each to their own - don't look at Zod's DB9 and think that every solicitor has one, because very few do!!
At a small local solicitors in say halifax or huddersfield you may get £24-£28k if you have around 5 years PQE
A big firm in Leeds with a few years PQE under your belt you may be looking at £42-£45k.
If you work for a big regional company in say leeds, manchester or sheffield and have ten years PQE you may progress to a senior level and earn more but this is ten plus years off for the OP.
A good freind of mine is due to go to a 'Magic Cirle' firm, and his starting salary is nearer 40k from what he says, so it might be nearer 35 in reality, but its a damn site better than the figures you mention. If the curve is so steep in London why do people put up with it elsewhere?
look at investment banking for example.
a magic circle firm is a top 5 firm so he will have good grades and a good academic background and he will be worked very very hard.
i'm always amazed at how many lawyers I see that have depression or have been depressed - it can be very depressing sat in an office with long hours and a large workload.
other careers such as 'sales' are frowned upon by some proper professionals but a medical sales rep for example gets a company car and can make say £50,000 a year quite easily in his mid twenties and is out and about seeing other people - ok its not a profession and ok its not got the same career progression but the jobs you don't think pay well often pay better than others.
having your own company is the only way to go in my experience.
Edited by musclecarmad on Saturday 12th December 22:43
Never understood the hate towards sales myself, I personally haven't got to those numbers but have worked with many that have, and they certainly were not as bright and on the ball as my freind, who had to pull in a lot of favours from his lawyer uncles and such to get where he is not to mention get top grades since GCSE.
I'm not really a salesman, and tbh it's not about the money - I could make a reasonable, if not stellar income doing web development. But I find it boring.
I need to investigate it more, but the commercial side seems interesting. Business contracts, sales and negotiations, looking at the implications of contracts etc. Property law, also. Not sure, still an idea at this stage.
Does the work stay varied?
I need to investigate it more, but the commercial side seems interesting. Business contracts, sales and negotiations, looking at the implications of contracts etc. Property law, also. Not sure, still an idea at this stage.
Does the work stay varied?
essayer said:
I'm not really a salesman, and tbh it's not about the money - I could make a reasonable, if not stellar income doing web development. But I find it boring.
I need to investigate it more, but the commercial side seems interesting. Business contracts, sales and negotiations, looking at the implications of contracts etc. Property law, also. Not sure, still an idea at this stage.
Does the work stay varied?
Two years full time education plus two years training and you might still end up being stuck at a desk behind a computer doing not very interesting work. There are certainly the financial rewards out there for those willing to put the hours in but, as others have mentioned, many sols will not be on stellar salaries. I need to investigate it more, but the commercial side seems interesting. Business contracts, sales and negotiations, looking at the implications of contracts etc. Property law, also. Not sure, still an idea at this stage.
Does the work stay varied?
Just to add a different angle ... I completed a Law degree, 2:1, was half way through my 2 year block learning LPC then decided to change tact and work in HR (via a Master's). I applied like crazy during my undergrad for a placement, mainly around London and suburbs, but didn't get anything. In all honesty that didn't put me off per se. But was probably a good insight into how tough it would be to secure a training contract. Most of my peers who pursued their legal career have made it and are happily working away.
Not all technical IT jobs are the same. There are plenty of challenges out there, especially the more interesting roles where you can understand the business perspective in hand with the technical possibilities. With the commoditisation of IT, it's going to be a very interesting few years.
FWIW, I have worked at a magic circle law firm for 15 years as a technologist. I never envy trainees or newly qualified lawyers - they are run fairly ragged. While they are trying hard to change the demographic, there are also still a lot around cut from the same Oxbridge, zero common sense cloth.
Partners, I only envy the amount of disposable they probably have. The reality is they seem to be at work 24x7 out of choice. They are all incredibly driven people and don't always get to enjoy the trappings.
FWIW, I have worked at a magic circle law firm for 15 years as a technologist. I never envy trainees or newly qualified lawyers - they are run fairly ragged. While they are trying hard to change the demographic, there are also still a lot around cut from the same Oxbridge, zero common sense cloth.
Partners, I only envy the amount of disposable they probably have. The reality is they seem to be at work 24x7 out of choice. They are all incredibly driven people and don't always get to enjoy the trappings.
essayer said:
DeadMeat_UK said:
FWIW, I have worked at a magic circle law firm for 15 years as a technologist.
What's a technologist?Started as a programmer, through many varied roles and am now "Lead IT Architect".
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff