Where to start in IT

[smokingtyre]

I'm looking to change career and hope the PH collective can push me in the right direction.

I'm looking into learning PHP/mySQL as I run a few homemade websites and have started to use it. It also seems to be where good money is being paid.

Now the problem I'm faced with is I don't know what qualifications prospective employers look for, and if I'm better off learning something like HTML, C, etc first.

Any help welcomed.

[russ_a]

Have a look on Jobserve and you will notice that all PHP\mySql jobs hover around the 25k mark. To earn above this you will need .Net / Java skills. Or maybe something like Sharepoint / BizTalk etc.

If you can code PHP you will be able to pick up C# or Java without any trouble.

[DeadMeat_UK]

When I hire for a corporate environment I look for end-to-end skills.

e.g. not just the front end logic but an understanding of architecture, and good database design.

[page3]

russ_a said:

Have a look on Jobserve and you will notice that all PHP\mySql jobs hover around the 25k mark. To earn above this you will need .Net / Java skills. Or maybe something like Sharepoint / BizTalk etc.

Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

PHP/MySQL is paying between £25K - £60K depending on the work and your experience.

Edited by page3 on Wednesday 16th December 13:04

[zippy3x]

page3 said:

russ_a said:

Have a look on Jobserve and you will notice that all PHP\mySql jobs hover around the 25k mark. To earn above this you will need .Net / Java skills. Or maybe something like Sharepoint / BizTalk etc.

Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

PHP/MySQL is paying between £25K - £60K depending on the work and your experience.

Edited by page3 on Wednesday 16th December 13:04

I wouldn't say it was nonsense - just subject to regional variations.
From what I've seen .Net roles will command better rates than PHP roles, with web development rates generally being less than desktop client server development.

In the north, 25-35k is probably about right for a web developer with 30-40k for desktop developer. Although rates may be higher in London, I would expect the descrepancy to remain.

[page3]

zippy3x said:

page3 said:

russ_a said:

Have a look on Jobserve and you will notice that all PHP\mySql jobs hover around the 25k mark. To earn above this you will need .Net / Java skills. Or maybe something like Sharepoint / BizTalk etc.

Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

PHP/MySQL is paying between £25K - £60K depending on the work and your experience.

Edited by page3 on Wednesday 16th December 13:04

I wouldn't say it was nonsense - just subject to regional variations.
From what I've seen .Net roles will command better rates than PHP roles, with web development rates generally being less than desktop client server development.

In the north, 25-35k is probably about right for a web developer with 30-40k for desktop developer. Although rates may be higher in London, I would expect the descrepancy to remain.

I've been on the market for the last couple of months, and found the range the opposite. .net roles paying far less than PHP/MySQL roles. Java still paying the most though, but financial sector experience required.

My new job (PHP/MySQL) starts on 4th Jan

[smokingtyre]

Thanks for the replies.

Is there any courses/qualifications that you would recommend. Whats the best way (if any) to get into this profession?

[john_p]

If you want to work in banking, Java or C++ are worth pursuing. I regularly see jobs at the £80-£100k level for good developers. PHP/MySQL is a pretty popular combo and in London you should be able to get £30-£50k, with more if you are prepared to take on team leadership/management.

I don't know the contract market for Java but PHP is popular on the freelance/contract market, and provided you don't try and get into a bidding war with people in India over fixed price contracts, you should be able to get £200-£300 a day in London.

It also seems that Linux server management pays pretty well in the city.

This is all with experience; if you are getting started you should take any entry job you can but be prepared to be going up against people who have been coding since they were 3 and willing to work for not much cash. For coding, one advantage you will have compared to them is that you can learn things properly first time around; if you do PHP make sure you learn MVC concepts, templating engines and object-oriented code as these will ALWAYS be popular.

[ymwoods]

smokingtyre said:

Thanks for the replies.

Is there any courses/qualifications that you would recommend. Whats the best way (if any) to get into this profession?

The best way is to learn how you want to tackle it. If your poo at design but good at logical thinking, breaking down data etc then databases and coding may be your calling. If your great with images and making things look pretty then design may be it. Depending on what your interested in just take courses in that area, so design would be some dreamweaver courses, photoshop design courses etc (usually run by local colleges or as very short night courses at Universitys*)

Of course you can get jobs with the best of both worlds, you either start at a web-design house and make a name for yourself that way or go freelance.

Either will require a strong portfolio of previous work and samples of what you can do. Freelance being the hardest as you have to go out and grab the work for yourself and handle all the business side of things too, but you take a bigger cut.

The Portfolio is the most important thing to have though, many people will not touch you until you have a selection of previous work. No matter how good you are.

• It may be worth calling the Universitys as well as many will sort you out by letting you sit in on just one unit from a degree course in your specific area. This does not necesarily get you any qualifications but you will get a certificate saying you "completed 'X' Unit of the 'Z' degree course with a passing grade of..."

[AlunR]

There are no courses that will help you I'm afraid.

Best way to learn is start with a simple problem and try and tackle it using a combination of PHP/mySQL and Googling!

Stackoverflow is a good place for advice too.

I've been writing OOP PHP with mySQL/MSSQL backends for a few years now but the reason I get hired (or rather my company now) is that we understand front end to backend, SEO/SEM and above all we understand business so we can work with our clients rather than take a brief and walk away.

You could also look at things like Textpattern/Wordpress customisation to get you started. you'll learn a lot of PHP along the way.

Recently I've produced this http://www.classicheroes.co.uk/ (lots of petrol head content in there ) in a very short timescale using textpattern as the backend.

Above all get involved in the community so you can understand where things are going. I personally wouldn't discuss terms with someone who didn't 'get' web standards, accessibility etc.

Oh and finally, if you want to see the breadth of stuff you need to be 'aware' of have a look at my mate Drew's xmas project http://24ways.org/

[130R]

TIOBE Index for December 2009 (the language in which most lines of code have been written):

1 Java 17.061%
2 C 16.285%
3 PHP 9.770%
4 C++ 9.175%
5 (Visual) Basic 7.778%
6 C# 6.258%
7 Python 5.185%
8 JavaScript 3.515%
9 Perl 2.692%
10 Ruby 2.653%

I'd stay away from VB if I were you and most of the scripting languages would usually be thought of as secondary skills against a "real" programming language like Java, C, C++ or C#. The good thing about Java and C# is that they are very similar.

However every developer I know has skills beyond just one or more of the above languages. You don't need to be a DBA but you need at least some database knowledge (SQL, schema design, what an index is used for, etc). Things like PL/SQL, version control systems, build scripts, HTML, XML, some networking knowledge, design patterns, UML, APIs that build on the standard API (java examples would be: Spring, Hibernate, any of the Apache projects, etc), web servers, application servers, IDEs ...

Obviously nobody just starting is going to know all the above but its worth looking at a range of job adverts for the area you want to get into and knowing at least what additional skills people are looking for.

[sonic_2k_uk]

130R said:

TIOBE Index for December 2009 (the language in which most lines of code have been written):

1 Java 17.061%
2 C 16.285%
3 PHP 9.770%
4 C++ 9.175%
5 (Visual) Basic 7.778%
6 C# 6.258%
7 Python 5.185%
8 JavaScript 3.515%
9 Perl 2.692%
10 Ruby 2.653%.

Thats just because Java developers write bulky code

I'm a PHP/MySQL developer with no formal qualifications, and yes i get paid more than £25k/year. The best thing i can recommend is take any job you get the offer of initially. Experience trumps formal qualifications for the most part and you can only climb the ladder once you're on it.

You will really want to know PHP 5 with OOP knowledge (classes/objects etc), SQL for MySQL, X/HTML and probably CSS and JavaScript.

I'm not sure how much programming knowledge and experience you have but if you're starting from stage 1 then begin by reading through the following - http://www.php.net/manual/en/langref.php

Then work on your OO skills and learn some SQL - http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/

Don't expect to be an expert in a couple of weeks, months or even years. Do ask lots of questions.

[russ_a]

page3 said:

russ_a said:

Have a look on Jobserve and you will notice that all PHP\mySql jobs hover around the 25k mark. To earn above this you will need .Net / Java skills. Or maybe something like Sharepoint / BizTalk etc.

Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

PHP/MySQL is paying between £25K - £60K depending on the work and your experience.

Edited by page3 on Wednesday 16th December 13:04

You must live in a dream world!!!

http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=1C4B1...

http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/Content/PermanentDeveloper...

The facts speak for themself!!

This chap is looking for some good advice, please don't post rubbish just to defend the language you like to use.

All I can say is this place is frequented by lots of bedroom coders!!

[TonyToniTone]

russ_a said:

page3 said:

russ_a said:

Have a look on Jobserve and you will notice that all PHP\mySql jobs hover around the 25k mark. To earn above this you will need .Net / Java skills. Or maybe something like Sharepoint / BizTalk etc.

Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

PHP/MySQL is paying between £25K - £60K depending on the work and your experience.

Edited by page3 on Wednesday 16th December 13:04

You must live in a dream world!!!

http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=1C4B1...

http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/Content/PermanentDeveloper...

The facts speak for themself!!

This chap is looking for some good advice, please don't post rubbish just to defend the language you like to use.

All I can say is this place is frequented by lots of bedroom coders!!

http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=1C4B160CB0658D6B59

Salary (£ per annum)
Not Specified (29)
Below £15000 (3)
£15000-£20000 (20)
£20000-£25000 (72)
£25000-£30000 (126)
£30000-£40000 (150)
£40000-£50000 (73)
£50000-£75000 (38)
£75000-£100000 (10)
Above £100000 (1)

[DeadMeat_UK]

The language doesn't actually make a huge amount of difference. I would hire a good java developer over an average .Net one for a .Net role. It's having the architectural picture that counts, not which syntax you currently know.

[zippy3x]

TonyToniTone said:

russ_a said:

page3 said:

russ_a said:

Have a look on Jobserve and you will notice that all PHP\mySql jobs hover around the 25k mark. To earn above this you will need .Net / Java skills. Or maybe something like Sharepoint / BizTalk etc.

Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

PHP/MySQL is paying between £25K - £60K depending on the work and your experience.

Edited by page3 on Wednesday 16th December 13:04

You must live in a dream world!!!

http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=1C4B1...

http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/Content/PermanentDeveloper...

The facts speak for themself!!

This chap is looking for some good advice, please don't post rubbish just to defend the language you like to use.

All I can say is this place is frequented by lots of bedroom coders!!

http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=1C4B160CB0658D6B59

Salary (£ per annum)
Not Specified (29)
Below £15000 (3)
£15000-£20000 (20)
£20000-£25000 (72)
£25000-£30000 (126)
£30000-£40000 (150)
£40000-£50000 (73)
£50000-£75000 (38)
£75000-£100000 (10)
Above £100000 (1)

Hmmm - just looked at the 75-100k jobs on that link - first 4 are development director (probably all the smae job) with php experience.
rest look like management/ banking industry which always pay a lot more.

the 50-75k jobs are mostly actaully 35-50k jobs - no troule guessing which end of that scale the job will actually be.

[page3]

russ_a said:

page3 said:

russ_a said:

Have a look on Jobserve and you will notice that all PHP\mySql jobs hover around the 25k mark. To earn above this you will need .Net / Java skills. Or maybe something like Sharepoint / BizTalk etc.

Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

PHP/MySQL is paying between £25K - £60K depending on the work and your experience.

Edited by page3 on Wednesday 16th December 13:04

You must live in a dream world!!!

http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=1C4B1...

http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/Content/PermanentDeveloper...

The facts speak for themself!!

This chap is looking for some good advice, please don't post rubbish just to defend the language you like to use.

All I can say is this place is frequented by lots of bedroom coders!!

Well pardon me for actually being in the job market right now and for telling it like it is right now. I've only been in the industry for 18 years so what do I know???

I'm not 'defending' anything and am at a loss as to why you think I am

There are plenty of £25K-£60K PHP roles out there, depending on experience and responsibility. It took me less than two weeks looking to secure a new job within the higher part of that range.

[john_p]

Re. PHP roles, page3 is entirely correct with salaries. Yes, you need lots of experience and probably team management responsibilities to get >£50k. Same for most IT non-sales jobs I'd have thought?

Nobody is expecting anyone to get £60k in their first job in any field, surely?

Edited by john_p on Friday 18th December 12:13

[russ_a]

there is not a single php job available for 60k. any development job paying 60k will be enterprised based, which .php simply is not.

60k managing loads of php monkies maybe, 60k for php development never.

60k for c++, java, c# development - (whilst london based is not that rare)

apologies if my posts have been a little agressive, I just dont want this chap to learn php and then realise the only jobs available are boring website templates from people who don't want to pay!!

[NoelWatson]

Here is an example of one path

1. Wasn't happy in Engineering, so taught myself VB in my spare time
2. Got an entry level IT job doing Access
3. Moved to London to work for small consultancy doing SQL/ASP
4. Moved to financial company doing .NET
5. Moved to a startup that specialized in credit derivatives
6. Went contracting in banks