Law Conversion/CPE

[st_files]

To the lawyers/legal people of PH. What are your feeling about solicitors/barristers who gain entry into the legal world via a law conversion course and then 2 years training? Does this method of entry into the career put you at a disadvantage?

[soprano]

st_files said:

To the lawyers/legal people of PH. What are your feeling about solicitors/barristers who gain entry into the legal world via a law conversion course and then 2 years training? Does this method of entry into the career put you at a disadvantage?

There is no major disadvantage in terms of how you will be viewed by potential solicitors firms/chambers - if you are good enough then you will get in.

There are pros and cons to each route. The conversion GDL/CPE or whatever it is currently called is a pretty unpleasant year. It is largely a whistlestop tour or academic law. You will find yourself having to take in vast volumes of information. My understanding is that it is not particularly difficult but just volumnous.

The other con to the conversion is that you will not learn legal research skills in the same way as with a 3 year straight law course. The pros of converting are that you get to study in another area which you may want to and employers may view you as a little more rounded. Do be careful to choose a subject that complements law though such as history. Don't get too many ideas about converting from a less traditional subject - people will always ask why.

I would say unless you have a burning desire to study another subject then go with straight law.

In terms of time scales obviously it take a bit longer.

Solicitor - 3 year law degree or 3 year degree + 1 year conversion and then 2 year training contract.

Bar - 3 year law degree or 3 year degree + 1 year conversion and then 1 year pupillage.

[johnfm]

If you go to any of the big law firms prospective trainee nights, you will find many, many of the trainees running the events and the people trying to get TCs are non-law.

Most law firms want a mix of people - the most important thing is how well you did at your degree and your other experience.

You will have a much better chance with a First in anything than a 2.2 at law.

I did the GDL part time and I will finish my LPC in June.

I got a TC pretty easily (2 applications, 2 interviews, 2 offers)- but I am more mature than most and have quite a bit of commercial experience.

It is a long slog, but not particularly difficult if you are bright.

Try to secure the TC before you start, as the fees are not small.

[st_files]

It would be going into the conversion course with a non law degree (Media) then 15 odd years working in advertising. As for TC's can you apply for them before you've even begun your conversion course?

[soprano]

st_files said:

It would be going into the conversion course with a non law degree (Media) then 15 odd years working in advertising. As for TC's can you apply for them before you've even begun your conversion course?

If you have already got a degree I don't see a great deal of point in doing a full 3 year law degree - the years conversion will be unpleasant but probably better on balance than 3 full years. I think when I was at uni there was a mature student that did a 2 year LLB so that is something else you could consider.

In terms of applying for TC's yes you can apply beforehand and like the chap above says it can be beneficial because the fees can be quite high. c.10k for tuition fees depending on which law school I believe. That being said of my friends that did the LPC and got a training contract after they had paid their fees, they had them reimbursed.

Have you settled on solicitor route or are you considering the bar?

[Rude-boy]

st_files said:

It would be going into the conversion course with a non law degree (Media) then 15 odd years working in advertising. As for TC's can you apply for them before you've even begun your conversion course?

I would decide what you would like to do in the law and go and research the sort of firm you would like to work for. Find out about their procedures and go from there. In my case it was a long time before I'd set foot in a university that I'd provisionally agreed where I would be doing mine, so long as got the grades.

[Piglet]

soprano said:

Solicitor - 3 year law degree or 3 year degree + 1 year conversion plus 1 year LPC and then 2 year training contract.

As amended. LPC alone is I think in the region of £10k for fees and is (unless it's changed) the most God awful mind numbing course ever.

In this market I'd be very reluctant to commit to any law course without a TC, there are hundreds and hundreds of really good graduates without TC's and year on year that is just snowballing and making it harder and harder to secure a contract.

[st_files]

soprano said:

st_files said:

It would be going into the conversion course with a non law degree (Media) then 15 odd years working in advertising. As for TC's can you apply for them before you've even begun your conversion course?

If you have already got a degree I don't see a great deal of point in doing a full 3 year law degree - the years conversion will be unpleasant but probably better on balance than 3 full years. I think when I was at uni there was a mature student that did a 2 year LLB so that is something else you could consider.

In terms of applying for TC's yes you can apply beforehand and like the chap above says it can be beneficial because the fees can be quite high. c.10k for tuition fees depending on which law school I believe. That being said of my friends that did the LPC and got a training contract after they had paid their fees, they had them reimbursed.

Have you settled on solicitor route or are you considering the bar?

Well, its the bar that appeals. I have been mulling over career options over the last few months and other avenues are either closed or dont appeal ultimately. That said, I'd discounted law previously as I was mistakenly assuming it was a much lengthier process to get into law which, at my age, is an issue.

I have left it very late (possibly even too late) to apply for a course starting this Sept but I hope to find out this week. I work near Grays Inn & Lincolns Inn so I may try to find an experienced ear to bend for advice on the TC issue - as I understand it they are fiendishly hard to obtain....

[soprano]

Piglet said:

soprano said:

Solicitor - 3 year law degree or 3 year degree + 1 year conversion plus 1 year LPC and then 2 year training contract.

As amended. LPC alone is I think in the region of £10k for fees and is (unless it's changed) the most God awful mind numbing course ever.

In this market I'd be very reluctant to commit to any law course without a TC, there are hundreds and hundreds of really good graduates without TC's and year on year that is just snowballing and making it harder and harder to secure a contract.

Absolutely correct - sorry I must have been half asleep when I wrote that! Of course at the bar there is the 1 year bar course as well.

[soprano]

st_files said:

soprano said:

st_files said:

It would be going into the conversion course with a non law degree (Media) then 15 odd years working in advertising. As for TC's can you apply for them before you've even begun your conversion course?

If you have already got a degree I don't see a great deal of point in doing a full 3 year law degree - the years conversion will be unpleasant but probably better on balance than 3 full years. I think when I was at uni there was a mature student that did a 2 year LLB so that is something else you could consider.

In terms of applying for TC's yes you can apply beforehand and like the chap above says it can be beneficial because the fees can be quite high. c.10k for tuition fees depending on which law school I believe. That being said of my friends that did the LPC and got a training contract after they had paid their fees, they had them reimbursed.

Have you settled on solicitor route or are you considering the bar?

Well, its the bar that appeals. I have been mulling over career options over the last few months and other avenues are either closed or dont appeal ultimately. That said, I'd discounted law previously as I was mistakenly assuming it was a much lengthier process to get into law which, at my age, is an issue.

I have left it very late (possibly even too late) to apply for a course starting this Sept but I hope to find out this week. I work near Grays Inn & Lincolns Inn so I may try to find an experienced ear to bend for advice on the TC issue - as I understand it they are fiendishly hard to obtain....

I would not be too concerned with age. I have a number of friends who have come to the bar late - 3 very good friends in fact, each from successful 'other' careers, all around the 40 year old mark. All have secured pupillage. I also know another 3 or 4 guys from previous careers who have secured pupillage. In fact the mature student ratio of the people I know is far better than those of traditional age.

Training contracts are hard to come by. Pupillages are far far more so. As an idea lets say you complete the conversion course and you complete the bar course. You are 1 of approximately 2000 people who will do so in that year. There will be approximately 450 pupillages that year. But of course you will have the people from the year before, and the year before that etc also applying. ETA and there will be many exceptional candidates. Remember to get this far they would already have had to excel at what they do.

The process is pretty brutal and can be demoralising. That being said the statistics do not tell the full story. Only you know what you are really capable of and whether you think you have what it takes to make it in the profession. After all if everyone simply looked at stats no one would take the steps to apply. There are definitely things you can do to improve your chances if you are willing to throw yourself wholly at the career.

You are right in that at the bar it may take a bit of time. 1 year conversion plus 1 year bar course plus 1 year pupillage (though this can take some time to secure). Dont forget about the finances either - GDL is 8k - 10k and bar course is 13k - 15k just for tuition fees. You may get lucky and secure a decent pupillage award but these are rare unlike the solicitor route so dont rely on it.

If you want a chat about the bar generally feel free to drop me a mail and I will be happy to answer any more personal queries.

Edited by soprano on Sunday 7th February 22:47

[soprano]

Oh PS if you want to earn 100k a year doing 40 hours a week as per your other thread then the bar is most definitely not for you.

[st_files]

soprano said:

st_files said:

soprano said:

st_files said:

It would be going into the conversion course with a non law degree (Media) then 15 odd years working in advertising. As for TC's can you apply for them before you've even begun your conversion course?

If you have already got a degree I don't see a great deal of point in doing a full 3 year law degree - the years conversion will be unpleasant but probably better on balance than 3 full years. I think when I was at uni there was a mature student that did a 2 year LLB so that is something else you could consider.

In terms of applying for TC's yes you can apply beforehand and like the chap above says it can be beneficial because the fees can be quite high. c.10k for tuition fees depending on which law school I believe. That being said of my friends that did the LPC and got a training contract after they had paid their fees, they had them reimbursed.

Have you settled on solicitor route or are you considering the bar?

Well, its the bar that appeals. I have been mulling over career options over the last few months and other avenues are either closed or dont appeal ultimately. That said, I'd discounted law previously as I was mistakenly assuming it was a much lengthier process to get into law which, at my age, is an issue.

I have left it very late (possibly even too late) to apply for a course starting this Sept but I hope to find out this week. I work near Grays Inn & Lincolns Inn so I may try to find an experienced ear to bend for advice on the TC issue - as I understand it they are fiendishly hard to obtain....

I would not be too concerned with age. I have a number of friends who have come to the bar late - 3 very good friends in fact, each from successful 'other' careers, all around the 40 year old mark. All have secured pupillage. I also know another 3 or 4 guys from previous careers who have secured pupillage. In fact the mature student ratio of the people I know is far better than those of traditional age.

Training contracts are hard to come by. Pupillages are far far more so. As an idea lets say you complete the conversion course and you complete the bar course. You are 1 of approximately 2000 people who will do so in that year. There will be approximately 450 pupillages that year. But of course you will have the people from the year before, and the year before that etc also applying. ETA and there will be many exceptional candidates. Remember to get this far they would already have had to excel at what they do.

The process is pretty brutal and can be demoralising. That being said the statistics do not tell the full story. Only you know what you are really capable of and whether you think you have what it takes to make it in the profession. After all if everyone simply looked at stats no one would take the steps to apply. There are definitely things you can do to improve your chances if you are willing to throw yourself wholly at the career.

You are right in that at the bar it may take a bit of time. 1 year conversion plus 1 year bar course plus 1 year pupillage (though this can take some time to secure). Dont forget about the finances either - GDL is 8k - 10k and bar course is 13k - 15k just for tuition fees. You may get lucky and secure a decent pupillage award but these are rare unlike the solicitor route so dont rely on it.

If you want a chat about the bar generally feel free to drop me a mail and I will be happy to answer any more personal queries.

Edited by soprano on Sunday 7th February 22:47

Many thanks - YHM.

[johnfm]

Both the TC and pupillage are easier to obtain if you know some people. It doesn't get you the TC/pupillage, but can get a foot in the door.

You need to be able to live on no money to do this sort of thing. If you go the bar route, you will earn virtually nothing in your first 6. I know one guy who pulled in £80k in his first year - but that was in Ancilliary Relief and he had lots of contacts going through costly divorces.

Having done it (I am 41 and finish my LPC in June) I would recommend gettign your TC lined up BEFORE you do the GDL and LPC. You do not want to pay for these yourself.

If you are bright you will get what you want - as the standard of the young, fresh out of uni law students is very, very low. None of them seem to be able to speak in public, spell or have any understanding of the commercial world.

[st_files]

johnfm said:

Both the TC and pupillage are easier to obtain if you know some people. It doesn't get you the TC/pupillage, but can get a foot in the door.

You need to be able to live on no money to do this sort of thing. If you go the bar route, you will earn virtually nothing in your first 6. I know one guy who pulled in £80k in his first year - but that was in Ancilliary Relief and he had lots of contacts going through costly divorces.

Having done it (I am 41 and finish my LPC in June) I would recommend gettign your TC lined up BEFORE you do the GDL and LPC. You do not want to pay for these yourself.

If you are bright you will get what you want - as the standard of the young, fresh out of uni law students is very, very low. None of them seem to be able to speak in public, spell or have any understanding of the commercial world.

So is it simply a question of contacting various chambers asking for an interview for a TC? This is all new to me....

[Mobile Chicane]

I am reliably informed that to 'get on' in law, you need contacts or money. Not so good if you don't have either...

[st_files]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Hmmm....not so sure 'media studies' counts as a proper degree.....

[Alex97]

st_files said:

johnfm said:

Both the TC and pupillage are easier to obtain if you know some people. It doesn't get you the TC/pupillage, but can get a foot in the door.

You need to be able to live on no money to do this sort of thing. If you go the bar route, you will earn virtually nothing in your first 6. I know one guy who pulled in £80k in his first year - but that was in Ancilliary Relief and he had lots of contacts going through costly divorces.

Having done it (I am 41 and finish my LPC in June) I would recommend gettign your TC lined up BEFORE you do the GDL and LPC. You do not want to pay for these yourself.

If you are bright you will get what you want - as the standard of the young, fresh out of uni law students is very, very low. None of them seem to be able to speak in public, spell or have any understanding of the commercial world.

So is it simply a question of contacting various chambers asking for an interview for a TC? This is all new to me....

You're getting some wires crossed. You do the GDL (the 1 year law conversion course) then you either do the LPC and apply for Training Contracts (to be a solicitor) or instead of the LPC, you do the BVC and apply for Pupilages.

Either way, in terms of employability I don't think there is anything wrong with doing the GDL. It's a bloody horrible year though and you do only get a whistle-stop tour of law.

[Andy_GSA]

st_files said:

So is it simply a question of contacting various chambers asking for an interview for a TC? This is all new to me....

Can't speak about training contracts (other than a relative who qualified about 15 years ago wrote to about 200 firms before getting an interview) but for the Bar go to www.pupillages.com - this acts as a central advertising / application point for all chambers. Not all chambers accept applications through this site but all pupillages are supposed to be advertised there. It's also pretty essential to contact chambers to apply for mini-pupillages so at least you can get a better idea of what being at the Bar means than you get from watching Rumpole/Judge John Deed/Kavanagh QC.

[st_files]

Could anyone recommend some decent law forums where I can dig for more information?

[st_files]

Cheers Tonker - really useful site that.