An unfair official warning?
Discussion
Hi guys,
I would like some quick advice. So I work in sales, and the company is failing in every area. Despite my figures and stats proving I am a better sales person on paper than my colleagues, they are chopping people left, right and centre. The crosshair has landed on me.
Now I have received a performance warning, which I can't dispute as I'm under target (despite target being impossible).
However, I recently become really quite ill with a severe chest infection and my GP deemed me unfit for work for 2 weeks. My colleague has just warned me on my return, that the national manager has requested I be given a warning for sickness.
I do have previous sickness but I am by no means terrible and with this 2 weeks off I have a doctor's note and I went through all the proper proceedure to inform my bosses.
Is there anything I can do?
Cheers.
I would like some quick advice. So I work in sales, and the company is failing in every area. Despite my figures and stats proving I am a better sales person on paper than my colleagues, they are chopping people left, right and centre. The crosshair has landed on me.
Now I have received a performance warning, which I can't dispute as I'm under target (despite target being impossible).
However, I recently become really quite ill with a severe chest infection and my GP deemed me unfit for work for 2 weeks. My colleague has just warned me on my return, that the national manager has requested I be given a warning for sickness.
I do have previous sickness but I am by no means terrible and with this 2 weeks off I have a doctor's note and I went through all the proper proceedure to inform my bosses.
Is there anything I can do?
Cheers.
Might sound harsh, but two weeks off with a cough, and with previous? Seems pretty much fair to me.
Look at it from their side - they are missing a staff member they are paying for, their work isn't being done, and they cannot rely on you to turn up when you have contracted to do so.
Would you prefer immediate cessation of chocolate rations, or a "poor you" reaction?
Look at it from their side - they are missing a staff member they are paying for, their work isn't being done, and they cannot rely on you to turn up when you have contracted to do so.
Would you prefer immediate cessation of chocolate rations, or a "poor you" reaction?
produce the sick note and explain what is wrong with you. cant see you getting a warning for it maybe just a quiet word.
do the company use braford factor or any other absence scoring method?
to be fair i've had 1 sick day in 6 years and that is because there was no way i could drive in, to me there is no need for excessive sickness unless you have an underlying condition.
do the company use braford factor or any other absence scoring method?
to be fair i've had 1 sick day in 6 years and that is because there was no way i could drive in, to me there is no need for excessive sickness unless you have an underlying condition.
Edited by phil-sti on Tuesday 27th July 16:30
randlemarcus said:
Might sound harsh, but two weeks off with a cough, and with previous? Seems pretty much fair to me.
Look at it from their side - they are missing a staff member they are paying for, their work isn't being done, and they cannot rely on you to turn up when you have contracted to do so.
Would you prefer immediate cessation of chocolate rations, or a "poor you" reaction?
That did sound harsh, because it was. I didn't have a cough. I had a chest infection, limited air intake into my lungs and an unusually high pulse rate. All the doctor's words and I at no point asked to be signed off. He considered sending me to hospital as it could be "early signs of something else..." but decided to see how antibiotics went.Look at it from their side - they are missing a staff member they are paying for, their work isn't being done, and they cannot rely on you to turn up when you have contracted to do so.
Would you prefer immediate cessation of chocolate rations, or a "poor you" reaction?
I understand their point of view, but understand mine; If I don't go to work, I don't get paid. I need the money and I need to work. On top of not getting basic, I also lose all potential commission. Today was the soonest I could realistically go back to work and I'm still unwell.
Being patronising isn't compulsory on PistonHeads, by the way.
randlemarcus said:
Might sound harsh, but two weeks off with a cough, and with previous? Seems pretty much fair to me.
Agree with this.Further, if you take into account that the company is struggling badly and everyone is under target- they have every right to expect extra effort from people, not swanning off for 2 weeks with a cough.
I don't doubt you were ill, but in 100% of cases- if a doctors note says 2 weeks, you are well enough to go to work after 1 weeks in any reasonable sense of the word.
FWIW-In the circumstances described- I would have definitely given you a warning.
You can't get a warning for sickness if you've been signed off sick by a doctor.
Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
RobbieB said:
Is there anything I can do?
Cheers.
Yes, if they give you a warning, remind them of your doctor's note and that you went through the proper proceedure to inform them. Given the above, I don't think you can be given a warning for being off sick.Cheers.
Depending how long you were off for, they should have contacted you to discuss when you were coming back. Was that done?
They should have also had a chat with you when you got back to ensure you were fit to perform your duties. Was that done?
Cheers,
FT.
Soovy said:
Start looking for another job. Sorry.
Oh not to worry, I've seen that coming for a few months. I just want to prelong the inevitable.I'll have to check the contract about the days per year, there was a girl who worked here a few years back who took 1/4 of the year off one year, almost all Mondays and/or Fridays and she didn't even get a warning.
I'm squeeky clean asides this, and I've worked hard for this company for 3 years now. So it's pissed me off a bit, even if I can understand that they're struggling.
RobbieB said:
Soovy said:
Start looking for another job. Sorry.
Oh not to worry, I've seen that coming for a few months. I just want to prelong the inevitable.I'll have to check the contract about the days per year, there was a girl who worked here a few years back who took 1/4 of the year off one year, almost all Mondays and/or Fridays and she didn't even get a warning.
I'm squeeky clean asides this, and I've worked hard for this company for 3 years now. So it's pissed me off a bit, even if I can understand that they're struggling.
If you've followed procedures regarding sick leave, and have only had occasional absences excluding the 2 weeks you were signed off for, you cannot be disciplined for being ill.
But you are in the firing line, so talk to your boss. Negotiate an exit package that enables you leaving voluntarily rather than being forcibly ejected.
Muzzer said:
You can't get a warning for sickness if you've been signed off sick by a doctor.
Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
More fool the company for hamstringing themselves by giving a contractual right to be off sick for a specific number of days! Just because somebody has a 'fit note' that does not preclude the company from taking any action it sees as necessary. As per usual with employment law there are a lot of grey edges with what is deemed fair or reasonable though. Depending on the nature of the sickness or absence then you will label the process as misconduct or capability, but both ultimately have to go through the same minimum standard process. Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
As for the OP, what can you do? You should use the appeal procedure as laid out in your company handbook or contract. You might want to compare your absence with others to show equitable treatment.
Edited by edc on Tuesday 27th July 17:09
edc said:
Muzzer said:
You can't get a warning for sickness if you've been signed off sick by a doctor.
Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
More fool the company for hamstringing themselves by giving a contractual right to be off sick for a specific number of days! Just because somebody has a 'fit note' that does not preclude the company from taking any action it sees as necessary. As per usual with employment law there are a lot of grey edges with what is deemed fair or reasonable though. Depending on the nature of the sickness or absence then you will label the process as misconduct or capability, but both ultimately have to go through the same minimum standard process. Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
As for the OP, what can you do? You should use the appeal procedure as laid out in your company handbook or contract. You might want to compare your absence with others to show equitable treatment.
Edited by edc on Tuesday 27th July 17:09
But, and I'm making an assumption on the OP's 'previous' sick leave, I'd hate to be the lawyer at the tribunal trying to make a case against an employee who'd had a couple of days and a GP-signed-off 2 weeks sick leave in a year....
Muzzer said:
You can't get a warning for sickness if you've been signed off sick by a doctor.
Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
Not true really. Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
Warnings will fall into two main categories - conduct or capability In this case it's conduct. He's obliged to be in work and he isn't.
Muzzer said:
You can't get a warning for sickness if you've been signed off sick by a doctor.
Yes you can, that is why there is a Capability procedure, or a capability clause in Disciplinary procedures.Muzzer said:
Getting a warning implies you've done something dishonest or something that could have been avoided. Your doctors note proves that's not the case.
A warning means that you have been formally told that your performance is not up to scratch, it is not a reflection on one's honesty.Muzzer said:
In your contract it will state what they deem as an 'acceptable' level of sick days in a year. In companies I have dealt with, this has been up to 45 days (that's working days, so 9 weeks)
Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
A contract or set of procedures does not have to state an exact number of days or Bradford Factor score etc, as with all matters of this type, there are grey areas but it is always consider on the balance of 'reasonableness'. Absence places a burden on both the Company and one's colleagues, whilst sickness is part of life, continued absence is not acceptable.Unless your 'previous' is over this amount, they can't really touch you.
Muzzer said:
I've dealt with an employee at the company who had 45 days as their 'maximum' level of sickness who took every one of those 45 days off sick every year.
They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
More fool that HR department.They couldn't touch her. She never got promoted or a pay increase above that which was applied to the entire company and if there were ever redundancies she'd be first in the firing line. But they couldn't discipline her without proof she was well enough to work.
Muzzer said:
Sales is a tough environment. Talk to your boss. Explain that you can't be disciplined for having time off sick. If he's pushing to get rid of you, find out why and negotiate a pay off if necessary/applicable/available.
Talk to your boss, yes. Do not explain you "can't" be disciplined as that will only get their backs up, now is now the time to negotiate a pay-off as you will be doing is digging your own grave.Muzzer - this is not an attack on you. I have personally asked for help on this forum and normally find that there are a lot of experts on here, however, I feel you have presented one side of the argument which doesnt assist the OP.
RobbieB - if you have reached a Verbal Warning level at this stage (you didn't state) then ensure that you don't have any other absences in the period whilst the warning remains on your file. I, too, work in a sales environment and know how unkindly my Company looks on sickness. You didn't provide any other details on other absences. If it has been 1 day a month for the past 3 or 4 months, followed by the 2 weeks absence, I think the warning is fair and as per procedure. However, if your other absences were merely 1 day in March and 1 day in November 09, for example - and you feel it's worth it - follow the appeal procedure.
scirocco265 said:
Muzzer - this is not an attack on you. I have personally asked for help on this forum and normally find that there are a lot of experts on here, however, I feel you have presented one side of the argument which doesnt assist the OP.
No offence taken. I guess I must have a pussy HR dept as they would never pursue a warning on this basis!As stated, it does rather depend on how many sick days the OP has had in the last year in addition to the 2 weeks he was signed off for.
I still stand by my assertion that he has a case if that absence is minimal
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff