Want to work for someone who might not need me!?
Discussion
Hi Guys,
Sorry for the 1st post – it’s not actually my first post on here – I’m on as another name but want to remain anonymous – for reasons you’ll soon see below.
Basically, it’s a bit of a career related question / dilemma.
I work for a building company and have worked for said company since Feb 2008. Things are going ok, however, career progression isn’t really possible – they’re blaming the credit crunch but we all seem flat out busy and the work is there – I really just believe it’s an excuse. Progression is fairly important to me though – we have 3 young children and the wife has finished wife to be a full time Mum for a few years – something we both want as we want them to have that quality time – rather than being passed between Grandparents and after school clubs and so on.
Anyway, a bit of a story.
Since mid 2008 I’ve used a sub-contractor at work, lets call them ABC (need to keep this fairly quite). ABC did some really good work for us – mainly, I believe due to really good management by two chaps – lets call them V and F. V was the chap on site putting the hours in and generally being a perfectionist – no screw was left unturned properly, no tile out of place, everything bob on. The brains behind it however was F, a chap who worked mega hours to get things done well – I once met him in Manchester, he lives near Birmingham and had stopped off to meet me between 2 sites, one in Glasgow, the other in Bournemouth – all in one working day! F was just an employee of ABC, actually freelance too – not an owner or director.
Anyway, a few months went by and the work went well but in early 2009, ABC laid off V. No real reason other than work was quiet and ABC were based in the Midlands and V lived in the North. It was probably just easier to keep the local lads on. Anyway, V asked could he work for us direct. I said yes, as long as the paperwork was in place – which he obliged and sorted and then carried on working – well. What I didn’t know at this point was that F was a bit p*ssed off that ABC had got rid of V, one of their best lads and had helped him out by helping with the paperwork. There didn’t appear any major conflict of interest – because I will add at this point that before V was laid off, ABC withdrew from the work claiming that they couldn’t do the work at the rates we were paying and make a profit.
Anyway, ABC found out what had gone on and laid F off too.
F went working for V and they’re now both Directors of V’s original company. V had been running things quite casually – he’s more a tradesman than a businessman whereas F can turn his had to both pretty well – he’s one of the best painters I know and runs a really good ship business-wise too.
In 2009, V solely turned over around £90k working solely for us. Since Q2 2010, with F on board, they’ve turned over £1.1m – and have made good profits too from what I hear. They’ve overcome one of the biggest issues at present in construction – that of pro-forma payments, whereby goods and services are paid for up front as suppliers are so nervous of new companies in the current climate – obviously causes cashflow issues and how they’ve done it is that when F worked for ABC he was officially freelance and ran ‘himself’ as a Ltd company so owns a 10 yr old company with good accounts – and so a lot of materials have been bought through said 10 yr old company and sold by F to the new business.
Where I come into it is that F mentioned a few weeks ago that we was so busy running the business and the sites that he needed help as he was working long hours. I don’t know if he was hinting but I offered to assist and have helped him out with some paperwork. No conflict of interest with my ‘dayjob’ as it’s nothing to do with ‘their’ work and it’s not in competition with them.
But I don’t know if he wants me to go working for them fulltime – and don’t know how to ask him so – do I just ask straight up? I’ve not fully completed the tasks he needs doing yet - but will do over the next week or so. Also, V has mentioned a couple of times to me on site that I’d look good in one of their company t-shirts – does make me wonder if something has been discussed.
I want to be prepared when they ask, if they do (really don’t want to sound big-headed assuming that an offer is coming my way but I believe I’d do a good job there) – hence the post now.
If they do ask though – do I ask to become an Employee or a shareholder? In terms of assets, I don’t envisage much at the moment. V had an 05 plate Transit that has now been replaced by a brand new VW Crafter paid for monthly by the company, F has a new van on order also – the other lads just either hire vans for specific jobs and they’ve a couple of old runabouts that they use. In terms of premises, they have a yard with a small container in the North, rented, and a small workshop/office in the Midlands area. Staff-wise, lads are all paid as and when they work and F’s wife helps with the book-keeping. So, it’s not like I’d be asking for shares in a massive company with lots of assets to get my hands on. I was actually considering that if the offer comes, selling my car and buying a van to show some level of commitment – whether it’d be one used by me or one passed to the lads. All of course done fairly and legally to protect me personally.
Other option would be just to agree a salary, ask for a car or allowance and crack on that way.
Either way, I think it’d be a better career move in the long term – especially if they can sustain the growth or at least guarantee me a decent period of work (as there is other work out there in construction now should the worse happen).
So, to recap – my questions
1. How do I ask them for a job that might not exist?
2. Am I right to want to go to work for them?
3. If they do ask me – do I shoot them down before they offer me a salary and a Ford Focus and instead offer myself and a van for a monthly wage and a decent dividend when profits comes.
4. Do I monitor the situation – do a bit more ‘freelance’ work for them and perhaps arrange a casual sit down to dicsuss what I’ve said above with them, perhaps in 3 months or so’s time.
5. Am I just being silly? I'd like think i'm a realist - it's not like i want to be the next Top Gear presenter or astronaut!
Any help greatly received.
Sorry for the 1st post – it’s not actually my first post on here – I’m on as another name but want to remain anonymous – for reasons you’ll soon see below.
Basically, it’s a bit of a career related question / dilemma.
I work for a building company and have worked for said company since Feb 2008. Things are going ok, however, career progression isn’t really possible – they’re blaming the credit crunch but we all seem flat out busy and the work is there – I really just believe it’s an excuse. Progression is fairly important to me though – we have 3 young children and the wife has finished wife to be a full time Mum for a few years – something we both want as we want them to have that quality time – rather than being passed between Grandparents and after school clubs and so on.
Anyway, a bit of a story.
Since mid 2008 I’ve used a sub-contractor at work, lets call them ABC (need to keep this fairly quite). ABC did some really good work for us – mainly, I believe due to really good management by two chaps – lets call them V and F. V was the chap on site putting the hours in and generally being a perfectionist – no screw was left unturned properly, no tile out of place, everything bob on. The brains behind it however was F, a chap who worked mega hours to get things done well – I once met him in Manchester, he lives near Birmingham and had stopped off to meet me between 2 sites, one in Glasgow, the other in Bournemouth – all in one working day! F was just an employee of ABC, actually freelance too – not an owner or director.
Anyway, a few months went by and the work went well but in early 2009, ABC laid off V. No real reason other than work was quiet and ABC were based in the Midlands and V lived in the North. It was probably just easier to keep the local lads on. Anyway, V asked could he work for us direct. I said yes, as long as the paperwork was in place – which he obliged and sorted and then carried on working – well. What I didn’t know at this point was that F was a bit p*ssed off that ABC had got rid of V, one of their best lads and had helped him out by helping with the paperwork. There didn’t appear any major conflict of interest – because I will add at this point that before V was laid off, ABC withdrew from the work claiming that they couldn’t do the work at the rates we were paying and make a profit.
Anyway, ABC found out what had gone on and laid F off too.
F went working for V and they’re now both Directors of V’s original company. V had been running things quite casually – he’s more a tradesman than a businessman whereas F can turn his had to both pretty well – he’s one of the best painters I know and runs a really good ship business-wise too.
In 2009, V solely turned over around £90k working solely for us. Since Q2 2010, with F on board, they’ve turned over £1.1m – and have made good profits too from what I hear. They’ve overcome one of the biggest issues at present in construction – that of pro-forma payments, whereby goods and services are paid for up front as suppliers are so nervous of new companies in the current climate – obviously causes cashflow issues and how they’ve done it is that when F worked for ABC he was officially freelance and ran ‘himself’ as a Ltd company so owns a 10 yr old company with good accounts – and so a lot of materials have been bought through said 10 yr old company and sold by F to the new business.
Where I come into it is that F mentioned a few weeks ago that we was so busy running the business and the sites that he needed help as he was working long hours. I don’t know if he was hinting but I offered to assist and have helped him out with some paperwork. No conflict of interest with my ‘dayjob’ as it’s nothing to do with ‘their’ work and it’s not in competition with them.
But I don’t know if he wants me to go working for them fulltime – and don’t know how to ask him so – do I just ask straight up? I’ve not fully completed the tasks he needs doing yet - but will do over the next week or so. Also, V has mentioned a couple of times to me on site that I’d look good in one of their company t-shirts – does make me wonder if something has been discussed.
I want to be prepared when they ask, if they do (really don’t want to sound big-headed assuming that an offer is coming my way but I believe I’d do a good job there) – hence the post now.
If they do ask though – do I ask to become an Employee or a shareholder? In terms of assets, I don’t envisage much at the moment. V had an 05 plate Transit that has now been replaced by a brand new VW Crafter paid for monthly by the company, F has a new van on order also – the other lads just either hire vans for specific jobs and they’ve a couple of old runabouts that they use. In terms of premises, they have a yard with a small container in the North, rented, and a small workshop/office in the Midlands area. Staff-wise, lads are all paid as and when they work and F’s wife helps with the book-keeping. So, it’s not like I’d be asking for shares in a massive company with lots of assets to get my hands on. I was actually considering that if the offer comes, selling my car and buying a van to show some level of commitment – whether it’d be one used by me or one passed to the lads. All of course done fairly and legally to protect me personally.
Other option would be just to agree a salary, ask for a car or allowance and crack on that way.
Either way, I think it’d be a better career move in the long term – especially if they can sustain the growth or at least guarantee me a decent period of work (as there is other work out there in construction now should the worse happen).
So, to recap – my questions
1. How do I ask them for a job that might not exist?
2. Am I right to want to go to work for them?
3. If they do ask me – do I shoot them down before they offer me a salary and a Ford Focus and instead offer myself and a van for a monthly wage and a decent dividend when profits comes.
4. Do I monitor the situation – do a bit more ‘freelance’ work for them and perhaps arrange a casual sit down to dicsuss what I’ve said above with them, perhaps in 3 months or so’s time.
5. Am I just being silly? I'd like think i'm a realist - it's not like i want to be the next Top Gear presenter or astronaut!
Any help greatly received.
So if it were my company the only reason you'd be getting a shareholding is if:
a. You brought something unique to the table which would stimulate profit over and above what I could do.
b. You bought in at the going rate, because I needed the investment (cash) to grow.
Remember a directorship is not the same as shareholding. You can be either without the other, although in a small company with no ownership I'd warn you against being a company director.
If you are just a very good "insert job role here" then surely I'd just employ you. From what you say though the company is using freelancers to sub contract work as they don't a. have the balls or b. have the workflow to hire permies.
a. You brought something unique to the table which would stimulate profit over and above what I could do.
b. You bought in at the going rate, because I needed the investment (cash) to grow.
Remember a directorship is not the same as shareholding. You can be either without the other, although in a small company with no ownership I'd warn you against being a company director.
If you are just a very good "insert job role here" then surely I'd just employ you. From what you say though the company is using freelancers to sub contract work as they don't a. have the balls or b. have the workflow to hire permies.
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