Discplinary for lates...
Discussion
There's a few of us being pulled up for lates at work
however its not that we were late coming into work and logging in on time BUT not logging onto a certain system on time
what further complicates this is that this system is prone to errors. it goes down every other day so some days we naturally havent been able to log on because it hasnt been working. This information is clearly stated on the late forms. the actual lateness is twice in 6 months however they're saying its 6 on the basis that we were unable to log on this 2nd system.
The management are aware and we made it aware to them that we had problems logging on - at the start of the day however we were still issued these late forms. some days it would be down for days at end -
Is it still our fault that this system has not been working or as the company are saying we should come early enough so that we are able to log on else where in case of problems.
however its not that we were late coming into work and logging in on time BUT not logging onto a certain system on time
what further complicates this is that this system is prone to errors. it goes down every other day so some days we naturally havent been able to log on because it hasnt been working. This information is clearly stated on the late forms. the actual lateness is twice in 6 months however they're saying its 6 on the basis that we were unable to log on this 2nd system.
The management are aware and we made it aware to them that we had problems logging on - at the start of the day however we were still issued these late forms. some days it would be down for days at end -
Is it still our fault that this system has not been working or as the company are saying we should come early enough so that we are able to log on else where in case of problems.
RemainAllHoof said:
Sounds like a prelude to cutting back without having to pay redundancy.
This, if there using an unreliable system, to give you a warning, I would be very worried about where its going to end up.I would have a look at your contract and see if it mentions you must be logged on by 9am, or if it says you need to be in the office by 9am. Time to start covering your back.
I had a friend describe a similar system at his work last year, where the management expected their staff to be logged on and ready for work at 9am.
On the face of it that sounds fairly reasonable but he said the work network was so slow that it sometimes took 20 minutes to log on and open all the required apps.
To me that sounded wrong, basically they were saying you need to give up to 20 minutes of your free time to setting up company equipment every morning before you start actually getting paid for any work or else face disciplinary action.
To my (layman) mind that sounded like slavery. ie Do what I tell you without any form of remuneration or I will punish you. An extreme view I know but what do the legal bods reckon on this sort of policy?
On the face of it that sounds fairly reasonable but he said the work network was so slow that it sometimes took 20 minutes to log on and open all the required apps.
To me that sounded wrong, basically they were saying you need to give up to 20 minutes of your free time to setting up company equipment every morning before you start actually getting paid for any work or else face disciplinary action.
To my (layman) mind that sounded like slavery. ie Do what I tell you without any form of remuneration or I will punish you. An extreme view I know but what do the legal bods reckon on this sort of policy?
KrazyIvan said:
This, if there using an unreliable system, to give you a warning, I would be very worried about where its going to end up.
I would have a look at your contract and see if it mentions you must be logged on by 9am, or if it says you need to be in the office by 9am. Time to start covering your back.
This. If they're about to fI would have a look at your contract and see if it mentions you must be logged on by 9am, or if it says you need to be in the office by 9am. Time to start covering your back.
k you over you need to be in a position to hit back. It won't make any difference in the end - if they want you gone, you're gone. But you'll go on much more favourable terms.Are the company recording the increased late starts on personnel records, or simply raising the issues with the staff members?
It has all the hallmarks of the beginnings of constructive dismissal. Each staff member needs to pay close attention moving forwards and record in a formal manner when systems are unavailable. If you have someone independent that can corroborate the issues, this will add weight should disciplinary procedures become formal and warnings are issued.
As already mentioned, if your contract states begin work at 9am, you are entitled to arrive and begin logging on at 9am. If this takes 20 minutes due to slow/old/error filled systems, this is a problem for the employer only. They should invest in a system that matches their perceived requirements. If, however, your contract states 'ready to begin work/tasks at 9am', then it can be open to interpretation as to whether you, as the employee, knowing of the systems issues, should be prepared to arrive, start logging into a system and prepare yourself for your day.
An example would be; login in 08:40, go make a coffee, have a chat with colleagues, check personal email, visit toilet, quick cigarette (anything that can be deemed 'personal actions'), then return to desk at 09:00. If there is a system problem, you can then provide proof that you attempted to be ready to work at 09:00, but because of system issues that the employer is aware of and to blame for, you cannot. Therefore, no impact on employee, onus on employer to improve system to allow employees to carry out their job.
It has all the hallmarks of the beginnings of constructive dismissal. Each staff member needs to pay close attention moving forwards and record in a formal manner when systems are unavailable. If you have someone independent that can corroborate the issues, this will add weight should disciplinary procedures become formal and warnings are issued.
As already mentioned, if your contract states begin work at 9am, you are entitled to arrive and begin logging on at 9am. If this takes 20 minutes due to slow/old/error filled systems, this is a problem for the employer only. They should invest in a system that matches their perceived requirements. If, however, your contract states 'ready to begin work/tasks at 9am', then it can be open to interpretation as to whether you, as the employee, knowing of the systems issues, should be prepared to arrive, start logging into a system and prepare yourself for your day.
An example would be; login in 08:40, go make a coffee, have a chat with colleagues, check personal email, visit toilet, quick cigarette (anything that can be deemed 'personal actions'), then return to desk at 09:00. If there is a system problem, you can then provide proof that you attempted to be ready to work at 09:00, but because of system issues that the employer is aware of and to blame for, you cannot. Therefore, no impact on employee, onus on employer to improve system to allow employees to carry out their job.
who's in charge of this wayward system?
i suggest you tell your boss that if this system is that important to daily operation then make sure its working and its not your job to get it working so its down to him.
he's the gaffer so the buck stops with him.
record the conversation on your mobile discretly for further reference.
if he still comes the then take it above him.
i suggest you tell your boss that if this system is that important to daily operation then make sure its working and its not your job to get it working so its down to him.
he's the gaffer so the buck stops with him.
record the conversation on your mobile discretly for further reference.
if he still comes the
then take it above him.RemainAllHoof said:
I would be tempted to do this. Or set up a script to log you in at a specified time. Or rota with trusted colleagues. Each turn up early and log everyone in.
In all cases, it means you can rock up at 11am.
Don't follow this advice. Either could be construed as compromising the system and give these 'tard employers another excuse to discipline you. I'd take professional advice.In all cases, it means you can rock up at 11am.
Olf said:
RemainAllHoof said:
I would be tempted to do this. Or set up a script to log you in at a specified time. Or rota with trusted colleagues. Each turn up early and log everyone in.
In all cases, it means you can rock up at 11am.
Don't follow this advice. Either could be construed as compromising the system and give these 'tard employers another excuse to discipline you. I'd take professional advice.In all cases, it means you can rock up at 11am.
If this is a large company (i.e. one with a separate HR dept) request that these warns are retracted and if they aren't immediately claim harrasment.
If any of you belong to a union they contact them now.
You are working for muppets, you might want to think about not doing that longterm.
If any of you belong to a union they contact them now.
You are working for muppets, you might want to think about not doing that longterm.
Thanks for the advice guys
3 of the 6 late forms i've been given are for this system
one was given to the whole team and no one was aware we even had to be logged into this system - even the ones who were there for over a year.
one for snowed in and one for actual late
for the 6th i got a blank piece of paper.
I know i work for muppets but half decent jobs around my area are hard to come by. hand is forced so to speak.
3 of the 6 late forms i've been given are for this system
one was given to the whole team and no one was aware we even had to be logged into this system - even the ones who were there for over a year.
one for snowed in and one for actual late
for the 6th i got a blank piece of paper.
I know i work for muppets but half decent jobs around my area are hard to come by. hand is forced so to speak.
Oh well just had it
totally ridiculous.
They asked for explanations for the lates and I replied i was at my desk for three of them the systems were not working - oh ok right thats fine
wtf could you not see that from the notes on the paper?!
talk about stating the obvious.
no verbal warning or anything issued "but in the future you have to let us know as soon as possible that your having issues with the systems"
totally ridiculous.
They asked for explanations for the lates and I replied i was at my desk for three of them the systems were not working - oh ok right thats fine
wtf could you not see that from the notes on the paper?!
talk about stating the obvious.
no verbal warning or anything issued "but in the future you have to let us know as soon as possible that your having issues with the systems"
MadMullah said:
Oh well just had it
totally ridiculous.
They asked for explanations for the lates and I replied i was at my desk for three of them the systems were not working - oh ok right thats fine
wtf could you not see that from the notes on the paper?!
talk about stating the obvious.
no verbal warning or anything issued "but in the future you have to let us know as soon as possible that your having issues with the systems"
TBH, it sounds like they know that they have made a mistake.totally ridiculous.
They asked for explanations for the lates and I replied i was at my desk for three of them the systems were not working - oh ok right thats fine
wtf could you not see that from the notes on the paper?!
talk about stating the obvious.
no verbal warning or anything issued "but in the future you have to let us know as soon as possible that your having issues with the systems"
It looks like a good result to me. I think that the "but in the future you have to let us know as soon as possible that your having issues with the systems" was a bit churlish. However, I would humour them. If the system fails again, then tell them.
It really looks like the issue has gone away. I think that you should be pleased.
Don
--
Many years ago I used to manage a team in a call centre.
Advisors would arrive at 08:55 every day and then log in etc and by the time they were actually taking calls it was around 09:10
The problem arises when you've got 4 or 5 teams of 15 people all doing the same thing. The calls still come in at 9am, but the service is degraded due to people not being logged on and availabe to answer them. Not good. It used to drive me nuts.
On the flip side when it go to 16:50 people then started to log off so they could leave at 17:00 on the dot. I'd have no problem with people coming in at 08:55 if they worked up till 17:00.
My working hours are now still 9:00 till 17:00, but I don't put my coat on at 16:50 in readiness for a 17:00 get away!
Advisors would arrive at 08:55 every day and then log in etc and by the time they were actually taking calls it was around 09:10
The problem arises when you've got 4 or 5 teams of 15 people all doing the same thing. The calls still come in at 9am, but the service is degraded due to people not being logged on and availabe to answer them. Not good. It used to drive me nuts.
On the flip side when it go to 16:50 people then started to log off so they could leave at 17:00 on the dot. I'd have no problem with people coming in at 08:55 if they worked up till 17:00.
My working hours are now still 9:00 till 17:00, but I don't put my coat on at 16:50 in readiness for a 17:00 get away!
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