e36 M3 Evo - Track Day Brakes - which ones to go for
Discussion
Having completed my first trackday of the year at Oulton on Friday, I couldnt help but notice that my front brakes were seriously lacking.
So I am thinking about what to do to improve them ?
I dont have a bottomless pit of money to go and spend on some £1500+ big brake kit from one of the big boys.
So I am open to suggestions - what do you think, what do you run, what is your experience ?
Background info:
It has been partially striped, so a bit lighter but probably not much difference up front.
It has Replacement Vented Discs on the front but not the original floating. (before I bought)
Brake fluid has been replaced, brakes lines are braided and I currently run EBD yellow stuff pads.
Not entirely related but further info, I already run 18" wheels, coilover suspension with camber top-mounts, lower cross-brace and upper strut brace.
Let me know you suggestions ?
So I am thinking about what to do to improve them ?
I dont have a bottomless pit of money to go and spend on some £1500+ big brake kit from one of the big boys.
So I am open to suggestions - what do you think, what do you run, what is your experience ?
Background info:
It has been partially striped, so a bit lighter but probably not much difference up front.
It has Replacement Vented Discs on the front but not the original floating. (before I bought)
Brake fluid has been replaced, brakes lines are braided and I currently run EBD yellow stuff pads.
Not entirely related but further info, I already run 18" wheels, coilover suspension with camber top-mounts, lower cross-brace and upper strut brace.
Let me know you suggestions ?
For the smallest budget, stock with OEM floating discs and Pagid RS-29 pads. Discs will wear quickly and the pads are noisy but its by far the best method for the money. I never suffered any issues with braking on any track when I did this some years ago now.
To go further, get some brembo calipers from the 850i (you'll need to check which model as I can't remember) and some E46 M3 discs, again with RS-29 pads.
You know the next step, AP's.
To go further, get some brembo calipers from the 850i (you'll need to check which model as I can't remember) and some E46 M3 discs, again with RS-29 pads.
You know the next step, AP's.
andye30m3 said:
There is an option of running E46 M3 discs with the 4 pot brembo's from an 8 series (I think it was the 840) but the callipers aren't the easiest to get hold of.
This ^But, the callipers are as rare as Hens teeth ! You will need wheel spacers though along with longer wheel bolts. Both of which are easy to get hold of.
You have already upgraded to steel hoses, brakes pads, brake fluids and discs… In my opinion the next step is a BBK. You can keep spending money on the oem brake set-up and you will probably never achieve what you really want in braking performance on track days. Track days are really hard on oem brakes.
With track days in mind I also wanted to upgrade my oem brakes. I skipped spending money on the oem brake set-up and when straight for the AP BBK. Ok an AP racing BBK is not cheap; but I’m confident that by going this route I will have saved some money on the long run. I went for the full kit, but you only need to buy a front BBK to get great results…
Personally I would never put a BBK on my car that was not designed for my car (Calipers from an old Porsche or something like that). Maybe K sport is something for you; (some people say K-sport are good, other won’t touch them…. I think you get what pay for)
With track days in mind I also wanted to upgrade my oem brakes. I skipped spending money on the oem brake set-up and when straight for the AP BBK. Ok an AP racing BBK is not cheap; but I’m confident that by going this route I will have saved some money on the long run. I went for the full kit, but you only need to buy a front BBK to get great results…
Personally I would never put a BBK on my car that was not designed for my car (Calipers from an old Porsche or something like that). Maybe K sport is something for you; (some people say K-sport are good, other won’t touch them…. I think you get what pay for)
My previous track car was an E46 M3 and the stock brakes faded way too quickly so I upgraded to CSL discs and BMW Performance Brembo calipers. Which were brilliant and just kept coming back for more:
My current track car is an E36 M3 that came with AP 4 pot calipers with 330mm discs and Mintex 1155 pads, and I have to say they've been nothing short of amazing too. Think they're £1500+ but the stopping performance is truly awesome. My car (3.0) is stripped of most trim except the carpet and 2 Recaro Apex seats.
If I was doing another I'd go for these. Though may be worth checking out the Movit/Stop-Tech options?
My current track car is an E36 M3 that came with AP 4 pot calipers with 330mm discs and Mintex 1155 pads, and I have to say they've been nothing short of amazing too. Think they're £1500+ but the stopping performance is truly awesome. My car (3.0) is stripped of most trim except the carpet and 2 Recaro Apex seats.
If I was doing another I'd go for these. Though may be worth checking out the Movit/Stop-Tech options?
Thanks to Everyone so far for their advice/opinions.
I was looking at the performance friction replacement discs & pads NOT the Big Brake Kit, does anyone have any experience of these on trackday compared to OEM ?
I think from the feedback I have had that a BBK is probably the way to go, for what my expectations are going to be. So then it is just a which BBK!
I was looking at the performance friction replacement discs & pads NOT the Big Brake Kit, does anyone have any experience of these on trackday compared to OEM ?
I think from the feedback I have had that a BBK is probably the way to go, for what my expectations are going to be. So then it is just a which BBK!
lsclayton said:
Thanks to Everyone so far for their advice/opinions.
I was looking at the performance friction replacement discs & pads NOT the Big Brake Kit, does anyone have any experience of these on trackday compared to OEM ?
I think from the feedback I have had that a BBK is probably the way to go, for what my expectations are going to be. So then it is just a which BBK!
PF discs are an improvement over AP discs for track ... I've seen the AP discs (a bad batch?) crack after over heating where as the PF ones have worn as normal. I was looking at the performance friction replacement discs & pads NOT the Big Brake Kit, does anyone have any experience of these on trackday compared to OEM ?
I think from the feedback I have had that a BBK is probably the way to go, for what my expectations are going to be. So then it is just a which BBK!
I think you'd be impressed with RS29's and the Evo discs for the money ... as good as a AP kit is, you're talking the difference between £500 and £2k for the two options. The AP's on my CSL were excellent but the Evo/RS29's on my M3 GT were within 10% in terms of stopping performance.
As said above Pagid RS29/RS19 v expensive pads but very very well regarded as perhaps the best.
I've track pas'd in pals car RS29 & evo discs & would have sworn he had APs. An AP set up is ace but is big dosh, the big thing noticable with the big brake kits is the modulation of 4 or 6 small pistons vs one big one, esp with Brembos with difernet size pistons so progressive & not such a bang at lighter braking.
I've run yellow stuffs on my track M3s yes are not ideal but very cheap vs Pagid RS29 & coped fine at 80-90% pace & better when one up on a fully stripped car, but going hard they are not really up to it on the m3- were fine on my track e30 tho.
I'm running some pf pads on a track 328 at the mo, very happy with them indeed trouble is car came with 'em & even tho ive had them out I dunno what compound they are doh!
Pal ran race mintex F4r on his M3 & really loved them, did eat discs tho 2s sets discs to a set of pads!
Thning with m3 brakes & track is to sort good cooling back plates off for one, make sure the standard duct is ok & rip out the fogs & sort a proper additional cooling ducting set up in.
I've track pas'd in pals car RS29 & evo discs & would have sworn he had APs. An AP set up is ace but is big dosh, the big thing noticable with the big brake kits is the modulation of 4 or 6 small pistons vs one big one, esp with Brembos with difernet size pistons so progressive & not such a bang at lighter braking.
I've run yellow stuffs on my track M3s yes are not ideal but very cheap vs Pagid RS29 & coped fine at 80-90% pace & better when one up on a fully stripped car, but going hard they are not really up to it on the m3- were fine on my track e30 tho.
I'm running some pf pads on a track 328 at the mo, very happy with them indeed trouble is car came with 'em & even tho ive had them out I dunno what compound they are doh!
Pal ran race mintex F4r on his M3 & really loved them, did eat discs tho 2s sets discs to a set of pads!
Thning with m3 brakes & track is to sort good cooling back plates off for one, make sure the standard duct is ok & rip out the fogs & sort a proper additional cooling ducting set up in.
As above, the difference between standard brakes -> standard discs with RS29s was a massive jump.
From standard discs with RS29s -> AP kit with RS29s wasn't the jump you'd hope for for £1300 extra.
So, bung some RS29s on (front and rear if you can stretch to it - you'll replace the rears once every 48 years) and keep an eye on the various forums for someone selling an AP BBK second hand.
From standard discs with RS29s -> AP kit with RS29s wasn't the jump you'd hope for for £1300 extra.
So, bung some RS29s on (front and rear if you can stretch to it - you'll replace the rears once every 48 years) and keep an eye on the various forums for someone selling an AP BBK second hand.
i didn't get on with a rs29 / evo disk set-up... brake vibrations mainly... went thru two sets of dics pretty quickly. thought the rs29's tended to deposit excess pad material on the disks.
have switched to 'hi-spec' 6/4 pot combo, with 360mm AP csl disks and Pf pads. brake servo just removed and balance bar fitted...
have switched to 'hi-spec' 6/4 pot combo, with 360mm AP csl disks and Pf pads. brake servo just removed and balance bar fitted...
OK, so it has been a while (see note at bottom)....
I did receive a set of the BlueStuff NDX; however I have only tried them out twice; so I will be providing more updates on them this year; the first of which will be to tell you how they perform having been stood still for a little while (more than 6 months).
When I did use them: I used them on two seperate trackdays at Oulton Park in 2011 fitted to my 1997 M3 with standard brakes, and they performed excellently!
I previously had EBC yellowstuff fitted and they had performed well, but I was starting to look for more braking performance as my skills/confidence (delete as appropriate) increased.
So on the first trackday (Very Warm Conditions): I started the day on the yellowstuff pads and swapped at lunch onto the BlueStuff.
I followed the bedding-in instructions, which from recollection was several large stops, so apologies if you saw me locking up in the paddock!
The difference was immediately noticable; the initial bite was sharper, the feel was better and the stopping distances shorter. From the little bit of video evidence they reduced my overall laptimes by approx 3 seconds compared to the yellowstuff pads. As for fade; I didnt notice any on the runs I did, which are usually at Oulton - 1 warm-up lap, 4-6 hot-laps, one slow-down lap.
2nd Trackday was much of the same, except conditions were cooler, quite a lot cooler to be honest, but performance was still excellent.
Overall Very Happy So far with the EBC products and looking forward to seeing how the BlueStuff pads perform in 2012....watch this space for updates.
I was happy with EBC yellowstuff when fitted, I was very happy with the BlueStuff and just to add to it, I purchased some RedStuff for my wifes Golf GTI Edition 30 (which happens to be red) ...which are perfoming a lot better than the OEM pads.
Note: before anyone asks - I have not been paid or anything else by EBC to provide this review. They asked me to try there produc; I did, in comparison to an existing product of theirs which I had bought and then provided my honest feeedback.
I need to apologise to Andy for me not holding up my part of the bargain...however I do have a bit of an excuse...which is that some clown crashed into me in my normal driving and the consultant advised I shouldnt do anymore trackdays until the physio gave me the all clear....which thankfully I now have!
I did receive a set of the BlueStuff NDX; however I have only tried them out twice; so I will be providing more updates on them this year; the first of which will be to tell you how they perform having been stood still for a little while (more than 6 months).
When I did use them: I used them on two seperate trackdays at Oulton Park in 2011 fitted to my 1997 M3 with standard brakes, and they performed excellently!
I previously had EBC yellowstuff fitted and they had performed well, but I was starting to look for more braking performance as my skills/confidence (delete as appropriate) increased.
So on the first trackday (Very Warm Conditions): I started the day on the yellowstuff pads and swapped at lunch onto the BlueStuff.
I followed the bedding-in instructions, which from recollection was several large stops, so apologies if you saw me locking up in the paddock!
The difference was immediately noticable; the initial bite was sharper, the feel was better and the stopping distances shorter. From the little bit of video evidence they reduced my overall laptimes by approx 3 seconds compared to the yellowstuff pads. As for fade; I didnt notice any on the runs I did, which are usually at Oulton - 1 warm-up lap, 4-6 hot-laps, one slow-down lap.
2nd Trackday was much of the same, except conditions were cooler, quite a lot cooler to be honest, but performance was still excellent.
Overall Very Happy So far with the EBC products and looking forward to seeing how the BlueStuff pads perform in 2012....watch this space for updates.
I was happy with EBC yellowstuff when fitted, I was very happy with the BlueStuff and just to add to it, I purchased some RedStuff for my wifes Golf GTI Edition 30 (which happens to be red) ...which are perfoming a lot better than the OEM pads.
Note: before anyone asks - I have not been paid or anything else by EBC to provide this review. They asked me to try there produc; I did, in comparison to an existing product of theirs which I had bought and then provided my honest feeedback.
I need to apologise to Andy for me not holding up my part of the bargain...however I do have a bit of an excuse...which is that some clown crashed into me in my normal driving and the consultant advised I shouldnt do anymore trackdays until the physio gave me the all clear....which thankfully I now have!
I dont drive to & from the track in the M3, I trailer it.
The only thing I can comment on similar to on-road performance would be the small drives around the paddock, to & from the restaurant etc....and performance was fine..no sweaking.
they didnt feel like they needed a lot of warming up to work.
Sorry I cant help more.
The only thing I can comment on similar to on-road performance would be the small drives around the paddock, to & from the restaurant etc....and performance was fine..no sweaking.
they didnt feel like they needed a lot of warming up to work.
Sorry I cant help more.
I did a fair bit of research on this and have opted to go for a Porsche Brembos upgrade. I like yourself didn't have a huge budget so imported the necessary caliper brackets from RallyRoad.net in the States and sourced some 2010 Cayman S Calipers x4. These fit behind the standard 17" wheels with E46 M3 discs (which I have on order) or behind 18" wheels with E46 M3 CSL disks if you can afford the extra cost.
I got some brand new OEM Porsche pads in the deal on the calipers and although probably not the best for track I may as well use them up as replacements aren't particularly cheap. I will obviously experiment with some uprated ones when they're done.
All in my setup has cost me £1250 which is about a £500 saving over AP 4-pots on the front only. I will have Brembo 4-pots on both front and rear which may be a more balanced solution. We'll see. My friends have a very similar spec car to mine and have just fitted the APs so it will be very interesting to see how they compare when we get back on track in the next couple of months. Having seen the APs up close when fitted the quality and fitment is second to none. Worth the money I'm sure but I can't believe they will be hugely better than the set up I am going for. I guess only time will tell and I am happy with my decision so far.
Anyway if you want to follow my thread for updates on the brakes over the next few weeks when they'll be finding their way onto the car then you can do so here...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
James.
I got some brand new OEM Porsche pads in the deal on the calipers and although probably not the best for track I may as well use them up as replacements aren't particularly cheap. I will obviously experiment with some uprated ones when they're done.
All in my setup has cost me £1250 which is about a £500 saving over AP 4-pots on the front only. I will have Brembo 4-pots on both front and rear which may be a more balanced solution. We'll see. My friends have a very similar spec car to mine and have just fitted the APs so it will be very interesting to see how they compare when we get back on track in the next couple of months. Having seen the APs up close when fitted the quality and fitment is second to none. Worth the money I'm sure but I can't believe they will be hugely better than the set up I am going for. I guess only time will tell and I am happy with my decision so far.
Anyway if you want to follow my thread for updates on the brakes over the next few weeks when they'll be finding their way onto the car then you can do so here...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
James.
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