E46 M3 Dilemma
Discussion
Hi all, I'm new around these parts so go easy on me.
I am looking to get rid of my 1.4tsi Ibiza FR for a more serious motor.
I do quite a lot of miles, probably around 20k a year, and want an E46 M3. I will likely drive like Miss Daisy during the week as I'll be using it to get to and around work which is mostly motorway and A road and I'm in no rush whilst I'm there! However, I'll be wanting to have some fun in it at the weekend.
I just wondered if I would be better saving a little on the purchase price and getting a well looked after, but higher mileage model, or looking to get the lowest mileage, still with FSH, possible.
Any advice and info on common problems (other than the well renowned rear suspension cracking and the boot floor issues) would be much appreciated.
One thing, it has to be a manual. I have grown tired if the paddle shift in the FR.
I am looking to get rid of my 1.4tsi Ibiza FR for a more serious motor.
I do quite a lot of miles, probably around 20k a year, and want an E46 M3. I will likely drive like Miss Daisy during the week as I'll be using it to get to and around work which is mostly motorway and A road and I'm in no rush whilst I'm there! However, I'll be wanting to have some fun in it at the weekend.
I just wondered if I would be better saving a little on the purchase price and getting a well looked after, but higher mileage model, or looking to get the lowest mileage, still with FSH, possible.
Any advice and info on common problems (other than the well renowned rear suspension cracking and the boot floor issues) would be much appreciated.
One thing, it has to be a manual. I have grown tired if the paddle shift in the FR.
Cemesis said:
The SMG is not like the DSG. Give it a try
Thanks for the response.In what way is the SMG different, is it better when pressing on or regular daily driving? I find the DSG is fine once you're up and running, but is really hesitant when pulling away from junctions, especially when you haven't quite come to a complete standstill.
As an aside, not that you buy an M3 as an Eco-car, but I find automatics a fair bit thirstier as well. I was getting just as good mpg from my manual TT Quattro as I am from the ibiza.
What's yor budget mate? As at the moment there are lots of bargains to be found. I'm looking for an E46 M3 Coupe Manual myself and have found that decent mileage with decent FSH cars tend to be priced at the later scale of £6000 with room for negotiation.
There are loads on eBay at the moment so give that a try. Of course alot have been ragged to hell,
I'm with you on the transmission front as the SMG just doesn't do it for me.
There are loads on eBay at the moment so give that a try. Of course alot have been ragged to hell,
I'm with you on the transmission front as the SMG just doesn't do it for me.I bought an e46 conv with SMG just over a week ago, first time I have had SMG and have to say I love it (I had a 330 auto before) but the SMG is not an Auto it is a manual without a clutch pedal and yes it is a little hesitant from cold but if you're gentle then it is fine and I like the way it auto changes down when you approach lights/junction, especially when like me you have gotten lazy driving an auto for years. I have only driven it around town so far, to and from the train station mostly which is 5 miles each way and I am getting 23 mpg, albeit driving like Miss Daisy 
It's got a 1000 mile round trip to Edinburgh in the new year so will see how the MPG goes on motorway driving, but I averaged just over 30 from the 330 (petrol) so am hoping to get around 25 once a few longer journeys have been done.
Best advice I can give as a recent purchaser is be patient, don't buy the first one you see (it is tempting unless a complete dog) and give the SMG a try, I didn't expect to like it but I love it
It's got a 1000 mile round trip to Edinburgh in the new year so will see how the MPG goes on motorway driving, but I averaged just over 30 from the 330 (petrol) so am hoping to get around 25 once a few longer journeys have been done.Best advice I can give as a recent purchaser is be patient, don't buy the first one you see (it is tempting unless a complete dog) and give the SMG a try, I didn't expect to like it but I love it
Darren156 said:
What's yor budget mate? As at the moment there are lots of bargains to be found. I'm looking for an E46 M3 Coupe Manual myself and have found that decent mileage with decent FSH cars tend to be priced at the later scale of £6000 with room for negotiation.
There are loads on eBay at the moment so give that a try. Of course alot have been ragged to hell, I'm with you on the transmission front as the SMG just doesn't do it for me.
I was looking up to about £9k or £10k. Problem is it'd probably have to be from a dealer / trader as I don't have the money to buy it without part exing mine and I don't fancy doing a webuyanycar.com type deal as they usually have your trousers down, or so I'm told. I've seen a couple of nice ones with about 70k miles and history but not got as far as test driving them yet.There are loads on eBay at the moment so give that a try. Of course alot have been ragged to hell,
I'm with you on the transmission front as the SMG just doesn't do it for me.Stone Cold said:
I bought an e46 conv with SMG just over a week ago, first time I have had SMG and have to say I love it (I had a 330 auto before) but the SMG is not an Auto it is a manual without a clutch pedal and yes it is a little hesitant from cold but if you're gentle then it is fine and I like the way it auto changes down when you approach lights/junction, especially when like me you have gotten lazy driving an auto for years. I have only driven it around town so far, to and from the train station mostly which is 5 miles each way and I am getting 23 mpg, albeit driving like Miss Daisy It's got a 1000 mile round trip to Edinburgh in the new year so will see how the MPG goes on motorway driving, but I averaged just over 30 from the 330 (petrol) so am hoping to get around 25 once a few longer journeys have been done.
Best advice I can give as a recent purchaser is be patient, don't buy the first one you see (it is tempting unless a complete dog) and give the SMG a try, I didn't expect to like it but I love it
23 for town driving isn't bad at all. I was fearing mid-teens on these sorts of journey. Like I say, the majority of my trips will be motorways and A roads with the odd quiet country road thrown in while I'm at work so taking it steady I reckon I could get as good a mpg as is possible from the car. It's got a 1000 mile round trip to Edinburgh in the new year so will see how the MPG goes on motorway driving, but I averaged just over 30 from the 330 (petrol) so am hoping to get around 25 once a few longer journeys have been done.Best advice I can give as a recent purchaser is be patient, don't buy the first one you see (it is tempting unless a complete dog) and give the SMG a try, I didn't expect to like it but I love it
I suppose I could give the SMG a try just to see what I think. The DSG is a lot easier than a manual when I do get caught up in tailbacks on the M1!
Anything else I should be looking out for?
Latters said:
Thanks for the response.
In what way is the SMG different, is it better when pressing on or regular daily driving? I find the DSG is fine once you're up and running, but is really hesitant when pulling away from junctions, especially when you haven't quite come to a complete standstill.
As an aside, not that you buy an M3 as an Eco-car, but I find automatics a fair bit thirstier as well. I was getting just as good mpg from my manual TT Quattro as I am from the ibiza.
As mentioned above, the SMG is not an automatic (nor is your current DSG). The 6 speed in the SMG M3 is the same gaearbox they use in the manual but with the addition of a hydraulic pump to control the clutch and the gearchange.In what way is the SMG different, is it better when pressing on or regular daily driving? I find the DSG is fine once you're up and running, but is really hesitant when pulling away from junctions, especially when you haven't quite come to a complete standstill.
As an aside, not that you buy an M3 as an Eco-car, but I find automatics a fair bit thirstier as well. I was getting just as good mpg from my manual TT Quattro as I am from the ibiza.
The DSG is very smooth in its operation and the SMG is not, you have to drive it more like a manual to get the most out of it (ie lift your foot just a little on each change) and be aware that when its cold or at very low rpm, it can feel a little odd. People often drive them like automatics when its really not and as such never extract the best out of it. The gearbox speed settings try and make it smoother but in reality you only need S4, 5 and 6 and A5. I used to run mine in S4 which allowed for normal driving and the change was quick and could be made smooth. S5 was used when you are in a hurry, the change is faster than S4 and allowed me to switch mentally between 'normal' and 'faster'. S6 is the fastest but only selectable with the DSC off. The reason is because the change can be so violent that it can cause the DSC to trigger. This change was measured by BMW at 80ms (ie the change is so fast that 13 of them could occur in a single second).
A is the automatic mode (you can have an A1-6). A1 will pull away in 2nd gear for snow but it changes really slowly so don't use that unless you have to. The higher the mode, the faster it will change gear for you and the longer it will stay in each. I only used it for rapid overtakes when I didn't want to change down 4 paddles. You can be in S4 in 6th doing say 50mph and then spot a straight section with a gap, knock the stick over and in the same motion floor the accelerator. The car would change down 4 gears in one motion and off it would go. When it hits the redline in 2nd it changes to 3rd by itself and you can concentrate just on the steering. Of course you could click down 4 pedals but then the car in front can hear what you are about to do
When testing driving, remember that the higher up the rev range you are, the faster it will change. So if you poodle around town and change from 3,000rpm in 2nd to 2,000 in 3rd, don't expect it to impress you. Get on the motorway and change from 8,000rpm in 2nd to 5,000rpm in 3rd and you should see what its all about.
Regarding things to look out for, its a reliable car but there are issues. The boot floor is now the main one but was not an issue when I owned them. You are covered by BMW for 10 years but that will only cover 2004 and onwards cars now. They rust, as all BMW's do but from 1st January 2004, you get a 12 year anti-perforation warranty so grab a later one if you can. Don't get a post March 06 car as you'll be paying out £500 road tax.
The 19" wheels look better and the 18's drive better. That's a fact I'm afraid. I ended up with a set of both as I got the 18's super cheap and my suggestion would always be to do the same. You can always sell the second set at a later date. Tyres are important and I only used Michelin PS2's. They are alot of money (think £1,000 on 19's) but were the best at the time. Now I'd say the best is the Michelin Super Sport (same price). I imagine alot of people run cheaper tyres but you do feel the difference, certainly on a track.
Brakes are OK on the road and not a fortune, nothing really special about thoughts.
Regarding spec, the answer is simple: If its not a track car then get as much spec as you can and definitely get the Nav and the bluetooth if at all possible. Things like heated seats and the Harmon Kardon are good too.
Ecconomy is amazing really. Its heavy and the engine is big but it produces so much power that you can drift along without raging it. I managed 32mpg over 5,000 miles but alot of that was motorway. 35mpg at 60-70mph is about the most you'll get. Around town its 20's obviously.
Stay away from Phoneix Yellow and the light green leather.
In 2003 BMW released the CSL model which had different wheels, suspension, brakes, steering rack, carbon fibre roof etc. In 2005 BMW took some of those parts and fitted them to a run-out model called the CS. This had the normal M3 interior (leather) and options (Nav, heated seats etc) but with the brakes, suspension and steering rack from the CSL. This is the really the one to buy at the moment, assuming your budget can stretch to it.
Happy hunting.
Cemesis said:
As mentioned above, the SMG is not an automatic (nor is your current DSG). The 6 speed in the SMG M3 is the same gaearbox they use in the manual but with the addition of a hydraulic pump to control the clutch and the gearchange.
The DSG is very smooth in its operation and the SMG is not, you have to drive it more like a manual to get the most out of it (ie lift your foot just a little on each change) and be aware that when its cold or at very low rpm, it can feel a little odd. People often drive them like automatics when its really not and as such never extract the best out of it. The gearbox speed settings try and make it smoother but in reality you only need S4, 5 and 6 and A5. I used to run mine in S4 which allowed for normal driving and the change was quick and could be made smooth. S5 was used when you are in a hurry, the change is faster than S4 and allowed me to switch mentally between 'normal' and 'faster'. S6 is the fastest but only selectable with the DSC off. The reason is because the change can be so violent that it can cause the DSC to trigger. This change was measured by BMW at 80ms (ie the change is so fast that 13 of them could occur in a single second).
A is the automatic mode (you can have an A1-6). A1 will pull away in 2nd gear for snow but it changes really slowly so don't use that unless you have to. The higher the mode, the faster it will change gear for you and the longer it will stay in each. I only used it for rapid overtakes when I didn't want to change down 4 paddles. You can be in S4 in 6th doing say 50mph and then spot a straight section with a gap, knock the stick over and in the same motion floor the accelerator. The car would change down 4 gears in one motion and off it would go. When it hits the redline in 2nd it changes to 3rd by itself and you can concentrate just on the steering. Of course you could click down 4 pedals but then the car in front can hear what you are about to do
When testing driving, remember that the higher up the rev range you are, the faster it will change. So if you poodle around town and change from 3,000rpm in 2nd to 2,000 in 3rd, don't expect it to impress you. Get on the motorway and change from 8,000rpm in 2nd to 5,000rpm in 3rd and you should see what its all about.
Regarding things to look out for, its a reliable car but there are issues. The boot floor is now the main one but was not an issue when I owned them. You are covered by BMW for 10 years but that will only cover 2004 and onwards cars now. They rust, as all BMW's do but from 1st January 2004, you get a 12 year anti-perforation warranty so grab a later one if you can. Don't get a post March 06 car as you'll be paying out £500 road tax.
The 19" wheels look better and the 18's drive better. That's a fact I'm afraid. I ended up with a set of both as I got the 18's super cheap and my suggestion would always be to do the same. You can always sell the second set at a later date. Tyres are important and I only used Michelin PS2's. They are alot of money (think £1,000 on 19's) but were the best at the time. Now I'd say the best is the Michelin Super Sport (same price). I imagine alot of people run cheaper tyres but you do feel the difference, certainly on a track.
Brakes are OK on the road and not a fortune, nothing really special about thoughts.
Regarding spec, the answer is simple: If its not a track car then get as much spec as you can and definitely get the Nav and the bluetooth if at all possible. Things like heated seats and the Harmon Kardon are good too.
Ecconomy is amazing really. Its heavy and the engine is big but it produces so much power that you can drift along without raging it. I managed 32mpg over 5,000 miles but alot of that was motorway. 35mpg at 60-70mph is about the most you'll get. Around town its 20's obviously.
Stay away from Phoneix Yellow and the light green leather.
In 2003 BMW released the CSL model which had different wheels, suspension, brakes, steering rack, carbon fibre roof etc. In 2005 BMW took some of those parts and fitted them to a run-out model called the CS. This had the normal M3 interior (leather) and options (Nav, heated seats etc) but with the brakes, suspension and steering rack from the CSL. This is the really the one to buy at the moment, assuming your budget can stretch to it.
Happy hunting.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response!The DSG is very smooth in its operation and the SMG is not, you have to drive it more like a manual to get the most out of it (ie lift your foot just a little on each change) and be aware that when its cold or at very low rpm, it can feel a little odd. People often drive them like automatics when its really not and as such never extract the best out of it. The gearbox speed settings try and make it smoother but in reality you only need S4, 5 and 6 and A5. I used to run mine in S4 which allowed for normal driving and the change was quick and could be made smooth. S5 was used when you are in a hurry, the change is faster than S4 and allowed me to switch mentally between 'normal' and 'faster'. S6 is the fastest but only selectable with the DSC off. The reason is because the change can be so violent that it can cause the DSC to trigger. This change was measured by BMW at 80ms (ie the change is so fast that 13 of them could occur in a single second).
A is the automatic mode (you can have an A1-6). A1 will pull away in 2nd gear for snow but it changes really slowly so don't use that unless you have to. The higher the mode, the faster it will change gear for you and the longer it will stay in each. I only used it for rapid overtakes when I didn't want to change down 4 paddles. You can be in S4 in 6th doing say 50mph and then spot a straight section with a gap, knock the stick over and in the same motion floor the accelerator. The car would change down 4 gears in one motion and off it would go. When it hits the redline in 2nd it changes to 3rd by itself and you can concentrate just on the steering. Of course you could click down 4 pedals but then the car in front can hear what you are about to do
When testing driving, remember that the higher up the rev range you are, the faster it will change. So if you poodle around town and change from 3,000rpm in 2nd to 2,000 in 3rd, don't expect it to impress you. Get on the motorway and change from 8,000rpm in 2nd to 5,000rpm in 3rd and you should see what its all about.
Regarding things to look out for, its a reliable car but there are issues. The boot floor is now the main one but was not an issue when I owned them. You are covered by BMW for 10 years but that will only cover 2004 and onwards cars now. They rust, as all BMW's do but from 1st January 2004, you get a 12 year anti-perforation warranty so grab a later one if you can. Don't get a post March 06 car as you'll be paying out £500 road tax.
The 19" wheels look better and the 18's drive better. That's a fact I'm afraid. I ended up with a set of both as I got the 18's super cheap and my suggestion would always be to do the same. You can always sell the second set at a later date. Tyres are important and I only used Michelin PS2's. They are alot of money (think £1,000 on 19's) but were the best at the time. Now I'd say the best is the Michelin Super Sport (same price). I imagine alot of people run cheaper tyres but you do feel the difference, certainly on a track.
Brakes are OK on the road and not a fortune, nothing really special about thoughts.
Regarding spec, the answer is simple: If its not a track car then get as much spec as you can and definitely get the Nav and the bluetooth if at all possible. Things like heated seats and the Harmon Kardon are good too.
Ecconomy is amazing really. Its heavy and the engine is big but it produces so much power that you can drift along without raging it. I managed 32mpg over 5,000 miles but alot of that was motorway. 35mpg at 60-70mph is about the most you'll get. Around town its 20's obviously.
Stay away from Phoneix Yellow and the light green leather.
In 2003 BMW released the CSL model which had different wheels, suspension, brakes, steering rack, carbon fibre roof etc. In 2005 BMW took some of those parts and fitted them to a run-out model called the CS. This had the normal M3 interior (leather) and options (Nav, heated seats etc) but with the brakes, suspension and steering rack from the CSL. This is the really the one to buy at the moment, assuming your budget can stretch to it.
Happy hunting.
Having read the feedback I am more tempted to give the SMG a chance in a test drive at least, although I did have a run out in my fiancee's Swift Sport earlier and I still enjoy the feel of a full manual, clutch and all.
I'm not looking for a track car or a CSL. It's a daily driver so the stripped out nature of either would be out of the question and CS spec cars are, sadly, out of my price range otherwise they would be tempting.
The question is, do I wait until after Christmas or get out there now and get testing the water and pray we get little or no snow over the remainder of this winter.
Adding the SMG vehicles back into my search has certainly increased the pool of cars to choose from. I will keep you posted.
Cheers.
As has been said many times now on here there are the for and against SMG. All a matter of personal taste in the end.
I'm on my 3rd E46 M3 now and it is manual like the one before. The first I had was the SMG and I hated it even after several months. If you are planning on tracking the car then probably SMG for rapid gear changes but if you like twisty A or B roads then I would always recommend the manual.
Having not long ago sold a Golf with DSG, I would say the jerkiness at slow speeds around town is comparable and both the Golf and SMG M3 were sold because I could not get on with each of them.
Probably a bit old fashioned but give me a manual for a fun car to drive.
I must have been very lucky in my choices as none of the 3 cars I have owned ever had the subframe/floor issue and all 3 came from BMW dealers and had been checked. I would say though that all 3 only had between 28,000 and 34,000 miles on them at the time of purchase. Currently my 2002 has 29,000 miles and no floor issues. Must be driving like granny then...
I'm on my 3rd E46 M3 now and it is manual like the one before. The first I had was the SMG and I hated it even after several months. If you are planning on tracking the car then probably SMG for rapid gear changes but if you like twisty A or B roads then I would always recommend the manual.
Having not long ago sold a Golf with DSG, I would say the jerkiness at slow speeds around town is comparable and both the Golf and SMG M3 were sold because I could not get on with each of them.
Probably a bit old fashioned but give me a manual for a fun car to drive.
I must have been very lucky in my choices as none of the 3 cars I have owned ever had the subframe/floor issue and all 3 came from BMW dealers and had been checked. I would say though that all 3 only had between 28,000 and 34,000 miles on them at the time of purchase. Currently my 2002 has 29,000 miles and no floor issues. Must be driving like granny then...
What's the point of having one nursing it for max mpg all the time?
I get about 23/24 but my driving is a lot of mixed and the average is only pushed up due to some motorway trips. And the right pedal is addictive.
Your annual mileage means the car will be expensive to run both in terms of more regular servicing, worn tyres and fuel.
Personally I'd run the Ibiza for day to day and use the m3 some days and weekends. Or maybe get something more hardcore as a toy?
I get about 23/24 but my driving is a lot of mixed and the average is only pushed up due to some motorway trips. And the right pedal is addictive.
Your annual mileage means the car will be expensive to run both in terms of more regular servicing, worn tyres and fuel.
Personally I'd run the Ibiza for day to day and use the m3 some days and weekends. Or maybe get something more hardcore as a toy?
joema said:
What's the point of having one nursing it for max mpg all the time?
I get about 23/24 but my driving is a lot of mixed and the average is only pushed up due to some motorway trips. And the right pedal is addictive.
I can't see how anyone can nurse it for mpg coz as you say, the right pedal is very addictive. Every roundabout powering through and booting it in second from 4,000 rpm. And I like surprising her in the other seat, pootling along then without warning flooring it. Bring it on.I get about 23/24 but my driving is a lot of mixed and the average is only pushed up due to some motorway trips. And the right pedal is addictive.
(Currently averaging 26.1 mpg with an average speed of 34 mph due to too much motorway and then slow stuff around towns).
BMWNICK said:
Not sure which town you are in, but in London I am getting an average of 18.4 MPG on my 2004 330ci
Have you driven an M3? How would you say a 330CI compares? Obviously you're lacking a fair bit of the noise and some of the power, but how noticeable is it in the real world?Unfortunately it's going to be a good month or so until I get a chance to get out and do some test driving, which is frustrating. I need to get to work on the fiancée as well. I need to convince her she doesn't control the purse strings, at least until we're married!
Will drive one when I can insure one! But an M3 is much more in every way and makes a nicer noise (from being a passenger). Is the 330ci quick for every day? For sure it more than fast enough compared to a lot of cars on the road, but it isn't as special as an M3. I had an E46 320ci before this car and the 330ci is much quicker, but then you pay for it in the fuel.
I think if you drive an M3 all of your questions will be solved and you will be hooked. 20k per year will cost a lot in petrol with either the 330ci or M3!
I think if you drive an M3 all of your questions will be solved and you will be hooked. 20k per year will cost a lot in petrol with either the 330ci or M3!
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