Discussion
If the oil wells ran dry tomorrow.
Which would you choose and why? I'm on a long term hunt for a car that is affordable, fun and classic. Relatively simple to maintain and at the same time relatively 'pure'. A minimum of electronic aids would be a bonus.
Re: the E36, is the evo the better option over a non-evo car?
Which would you choose and why? I'm on a long term hunt for a car that is affordable, fun and classic. Relatively simple to maintain and at the same time relatively 'pure'. A minimum of electronic aids would be a bonus.
Re: the E36, is the evo the better option over a non-evo car?
Unquestionably the e46. I never liked the looks of the e36 and it feels old now - not in a classic way, just old. Even when it was new I didn't like the looks, and time hasn't been kind to it. The e46 is better resolved in every way - looks, interior, chassis, and the S54 is really an extraordinary engine. The e36 engines are good too, but the S54 feels in a different league. Between the Evo and non Evo e36, I'd always go for the Evo - it's more powerful and I really like the way the variable valve timing works.
hoppo4.2 said:
Having had both I can honestly say the 36 feels like an old truck compared to the 46.
Not owned both but have owned a couple of EVOs and driven a really fit ( 8000 mile ) E46CS; I agree that the E36 feels like a truck. Fitted a Z3 steering rack, X-brace and E30 front bushes to mine, improves things enormously.Next to no difference in pace............E46 is very slightly quicker below 100mph and E36 quicker above.
I've run both for fairly long periods. E46 is a better car and most people would prefer the E46, its really hard to fault. The engine and handling are brilliant and perfect for a fast road car, the interior is decent and it looks good. Only negatives about the E46 for me were:
1. Steering ratio - too long.
2. Lacks steering feel.
3. Traction control can cut in too early when driving quickly, or pulling out of junctions.
4. Brakes fade quickly.
5. 'Sport' button. Throttle pedal was too long with it off, too short with it on.
6. Personal annoyance - front seats.
The E36 Evo stacks up quite well in many areas (engine and gearbox are very similar in feel and use, steering and throttle are better judged) but the suspension is not as good as the E46 and its got a softer set up. Its also noisier at speed and feels smaller and the interior feels much older. The E36 needs more input to keep it going where you point it so in some ways is more involving. It definitely feels like a much older car than the E46 to be in.
My personal preference is the E36 Evo but this is not most peoples. I personally prefer the looks and the more raw feel. For me and the mileage I do the slightly softer set up is better for me too and the seats are much more comfy.
On the E36 evo vs non evo the only plus point for me of the non evo is the shift action of the 5 speed box is nicer to use than the 6 speed found in the evo. Given the minor cost of a vanos fix now I can't see why you would go for a non evo model other than budget or you happen to find a really nice one.
1. Steering ratio - too long.
2. Lacks steering feel.
3. Traction control can cut in too early when driving quickly, or pulling out of junctions.
4. Brakes fade quickly.
5. 'Sport' button. Throttle pedal was too long with it off, too short with it on.
6. Personal annoyance - front seats.
The E36 Evo stacks up quite well in many areas (engine and gearbox are very similar in feel and use, steering and throttle are better judged) but the suspension is not as good as the E46 and its got a softer set up. Its also noisier at speed and feels smaller and the interior feels much older. The E36 needs more input to keep it going where you point it so in some ways is more involving. It definitely feels like a much older car than the E46 to be in.
My personal preference is the E36 Evo but this is not most peoples. I personally prefer the looks and the more raw feel. For me and the mileage I do the slightly softer set up is better for me too and the seats are much more comfy.
On the E36 evo vs non evo the only plus point for me of the non evo is the shift action of the 5 speed box is nicer to use than the 6 speed found in the evo. Given the minor cost of a vanos fix now I can't see why you would go for a non evo model other than budget or you happen to find a really nice one.
Edited by MGR on Monday 7th December 21:17
Edited by MGR on Monday 7th December 21:26
MGR said:
I've run both for fairly long periods. E46 is a better car and most people would prefer the E46, its really hard to fault. The engine and handling are brilliant and perfect for a fast road car, the interior is decent and it looks good. Only negatives about the E46 for me were:
1. Steering ratio - too long.
2. Lacks steering feel.
3. Traction control can cut in too early when driving quickly, or pulling out of junctions.
4. Brakes fade quickly.
5. 'Sport' button. Throttle pedal was too long with it off, too short with it on.
6. Personal annoyance - front seats.
The E36 Evo stacks up quite well in many areas (engine and gearbox are very similar in feel and use, steering and throttle are better judged) but the suspension is not as good as the E46 and its got a softer set up. Its also noisier at speed and feels smaller and the interior feels much older. The E36 needs more input to keep it going where you point it so in some ways is more involving. It definitely feels like a much older car than the E46 to be in.
My personal preference is the E36 Evo but this is not most peoples. I personally prefer the looks and the more raw feel. For me and the mileage I do the slightly softer set up is better for me too and the seats are much more comfy.
On the E36 evo vs non evo the only plus point for me of the non evo is the shift action of the 5 speed box is nicer to use than the 6 speed found in the evo. Given the minor cost of a vanos fix now I can't see why you would go for a non evo model other than budget or you happen to find a really nice one.
Agree vanos fix has come right down. My double vanos system is starting to lack oil pressure at high temperatures so i'm rebuilding it over xmas. The complete seal kit delivered from america is just over 80 quid. I've budgeted three days to do it.1. Steering ratio - too long.
2. Lacks steering feel.
3. Traction control can cut in too early when driving quickly, or pulling out of junctions.
4. Brakes fade quickly.
5. 'Sport' button. Throttle pedal was too long with it off, too short with it on.
6. Personal annoyance - front seats.
The E36 Evo stacks up quite well in many areas (engine and gearbox are very similar in feel and use, steering and throttle are better judged) but the suspension is not as good as the E46 and its got a softer set up. Its also noisier at speed and feels smaller and the interior feels much older. The E36 needs more input to keep it going where you point it so in some ways is more involving. It definitely feels like a much older car than the E46 to be in.
My personal preference is the E36 Evo but this is not most peoples. I personally prefer the looks and the more raw feel. For me and the mileage I do the slightly softer set up is better for me too and the seats are much more comfy.
On the E36 evo vs non evo the only plus point for me of the non evo is the shift action of the 5 speed box is nicer to use than the 6 speed found in the evo. Given the minor cost of a vanos fix now I can't see why you would go for a non evo model other than budget or you happen to find a really nice one.
Edited by MGR on Monday 7th December 21:17
Edited by MGR on Monday 7th December 21:26
Really great input guys - appreciate the honest comments. I love the looks of both cars, but for me the e36 has broken through the 'chav' period. I loved the brutish tank looks when it was new and I've started to love them again. Yes it looks aged against the e46, but moreso because the e46 is still newer. Give it another 10-15 years and we might look back at them both differently.
My first choice was an e36 evo, but I wanted to get some owners opinions about the e46 as a 'vs' discussion seems quite hotly contested with equally good points in both camps.
For the most part it seems the decision is going to be subjective as it seems neither car has any major flaws.
However....
or even the S2000 (even though some criticise it for having a dull steering, the ration was spot on).
My first choice was an e36 evo, but I wanted to get some owners opinions about the e46 as a 'vs' discussion seems quite hotly contested with equally good points in both camps.
For the most part it seems the decision is going to be subjective as it seems neither car has any major flaws.
However....
MGR said:
1. Steering ratio - too long.
2. Lacks steering feel.
^This^ is a big thing for me. Although its no comparison, the e60 we currently have also has a very long steering ratio with a million turns from lock to lock. Very annoying. But as its not a sports car, I can forgive it. However, if I went out and bought a car for its sporting credentials and the steering ratio was just as long I think I'd have to sell it straight away! Give me back my Cerbera steering rack with 2 turns from lock to lock! 2. Lacks steering feel.
or even the S2000 (even though some criticise it for having a dull steering, the ration was spot on).Shaoxter said:
The E36 M3 rack feels slow, I don't believe that the E46 M3 could be even slower?
You're right, as an owner of both, I can confirm that the E36 rack is slower, but it has marginally more feel. The flywheel also feels very heavy in the E36 which makes it more cumbersome.It really depends on what you want out of a car, the 36 feels more old school, more mechanical and heavy. The steering is probably more analogue, it doesn't have traction control, bu it's relatively benign and easy to gather up, but there is always the chance it will catch you out.
The 46 has a sharper throttle response, especially in sport, TC, and a more lively chassis. It definitely feels a newer car.
But both are very good cars.
tejr said:
Really great input guys - appreciate the honest comments. I love the looks of both cars, but for me the e36 has broken through the 'chav' period. I loved the brutish tank looks when it was new and I've started to love them again. Yes it looks aged against the e46, but moreso because the e46 is still newer. Give it another 10-15 years and we might look back at them both differently.
My first choice was an e36 evo, but I wanted to get some owners opinions about the e46 as a 'vs' discussion seems quite hotly contested with equally good points in both camps.
For the most part it seems the decision is going to be subjective as it seems neither car has any major flaws.
However....
or even the S2000 (even though some criticise it for having a dull steering, the ration was spot on).
These are easily fixed for very little outlay by fitting a purple tag steering rack.My first choice was an e36 evo, but I wanted to get some owners opinions about the e46 as a 'vs' discussion seems quite hotly contested with equally good points in both camps.
For the most part it seems the decision is going to be subjective as it seems neither car has any major flaws.
However....
MGR said:
1. Steering ratio - too long.
2. Lacks steering feel.
^This^ is a big thing for me. Although its no comparison, the e60 we currently have also has a very long steering ratio with a million turns from lock to lock. Very annoying. But as its not a sports car, I can forgive it. However, if I went out and bought a car for its sporting credentials and the steering ratio was just as long I think I'd have to sell it straight away! Give me back my Cerbera steering rack with 2 turns from lock to lock! 2. Lacks steering feel.
or even the S2000 (even though some criticise it for having a dull steering, the ration was spot on).I don't agree with the brake fade either. The breaks are not the best but to get them to fade driving on a public road would be very difficult unless the breaks are shot. On the track is a different matter.
tejr said:
Really great input guys - appreciate the honest comments. I love the looks of both cars, but for me the e36 has broken through the 'chav' period. I loved the brutish tank looks when it was new and I've started to love them again. Yes it looks aged against the e46, but moreso because the e46 is still newer. Give it another 10-15 years and we might look back at them both differently.
My first choice was an e36 evo, but I wanted to get some owners opinions about the e46 as a 'vs' discussion seems quite hotly contested with equally good points in both camps.
For the most part it seems the decision is going to be subjective as it seems neither car has any major flaws.
However....
or even the S2000 (even though some criticise it for having a dull steering, the ration was spot on).
There is a long E36 EVO thread here, which has info about steering rack ratios amongst other things, BMW part numbers are in there somewhere too. http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&a...My first choice was an e36 evo, but I wanted to get some owners opinions about the e46 as a 'vs' discussion seems quite hotly contested with equally good points in both camps.
For the most part it seems the decision is going to be subjective as it seems neither car has any major flaws.
However....
MGR said:
1. Steering ratio - too long.
2. Lacks steering feel.
^This^ is a big thing for me. Although its no comparison, the e60 we currently have also has a very long steering ratio with a million turns from lock to lock. Very annoying. But as its not a sports car, I can forgive it. However, if I went out and bought a car for its sporting credentials and the steering ratio was just as long I think I'd have to sell it straight away! Give me back my Cerbera steering rack with 2 turns from lock to lock! 2. Lacks steering feel.
or even the S2000 (even though some criticise it for having a dull steering, the ration was spot on).Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 8th December 21:04
48Valves said:
tejr said:
Really great input guys - appreciate the honest comments. I love the looks of both cars, but for me the e36 has broken through the 'chav' period. I loved the brutish tank looks when it was new and I've started to love them again. Yes it looks aged against the e46, but moreso because the e46 is still newer. Give it another 10-15 years and we might look back at them both differently.
My first choice was an e36 evo, but I wanted to get some owners opinions about the e46 as a 'vs' discussion seems quite hotly contested with equally good points in both camps.
For the most part it seems the decision is going to be subjective as it seems neither car has any major flaws.
However....
or even the S2000 (even though some criticise it for having a dull steering, the ration was spot on).
These are easily fixed for very little outlay by fitting a purple tag steering rack.My first choice was an e36 evo, but I wanted to get some owners opinions about the e46 as a 'vs' discussion seems quite hotly contested with equally good points in both camps.
For the most part it seems the decision is going to be subjective as it seems neither car has any major flaws.
However....
MGR said:
1. Steering ratio - too long.
2. Lacks steering feel.
^This^ is a big thing for me. Although its no comparison, the e60 we currently have also has a very long steering ratio with a million turns from lock to lock. Very annoying. But as its not a sports car, I can forgive it. However, if I went out and bought a car for its sporting credentials and the steering ratio was just as long I think I'd have to sell it straight away! Give me back my Cerbera steering rack with 2 turns from lock to lock! 2. Lacks steering feel.
or even the S2000 (even though some criticise it for having a dull steering, the ration was spot on).I don't agree with the brake fade either. The breaks are not the best but to get them to fade driving on a public road would be very difficult unless the breaks are shot. On the track is a different matter.
The long steering ratio seem to affect a lot of M cars, certainly all the ones I've owned. I don't know why but I don't find it as noticeable in the E36, I also think the ratios may have changed between an evo and non evo but happy to be corrected on that.
Really though the take home point is that both are excellent cars and at the time they were made really class leaders, the 46 is 'better' by most measurable standards than the 36 but they are different to drive so it does come down to personal preference in this respect what better suits your needs. One major factor that should be considered here is age. No matter how well the car has been looked after the E36 is still going to be a lot older than the E46 and as an ownership proposition that is significant.
Edited by MGR on Wednesday 9th December 20:43
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