Talk me out of buying an E36 M3
Discussion
I'm lucky enough to own an E92 330i and E30 325i. I like them both but love the E30, as accomplished as the E92 is with all the pace it offers it doesn't put half as many smiles on my face as tootling at sensible speeds does in the E30. Having a rummage around the classifieds on PH has thrown up a sensible four door family car... http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b....
I really want an M car someday, not for the badge kudos but for the experience folk rave about. I don't want to do 100 mph everywhere but want to enjoy the B road blasts, my E30 is running on shagged suspension at the moment but it's still a hoot so logically a sorted M car with the fancypants running gear, diffs and magical engines (basically BMW turned up to 11) would be brilliant. I've never driven an M car and know this may be rose tinted glasses but this is part of the itch.
I haven't read up on the E36 M3 but imagine it'd be much closer to the E30 driving experience (coming from modern cars) without the £1,000,000 price tag for an E30 M3. I know the experience would be vastly different from my E30 and E92, that there is a debate on which is the one to have between the 3.0 and 3.2, and that subframe issues affected the E36 as well as the E46. I have no idea what to pay for a good / bad one, I've only posted the link as from the ad it does look to be a looked after example. I'd keep the E30 as it's my rust conversion project and move the E92 on.
I'd be using the E36 as a daily (~30 mile commute round trip), I do not have a garage (as the E30 lives in it) and know this is a horrendous, ruinous idea. I'll probably forget about the advert and move on but it looks great and there's an attraction to it being the underdog E36 rather than one of the more loved M cars. Would the E36 be exciting enough to justify the wallet destroying experience of owning it, or would I be better off enjoying the balance of the E92 for daily duties and the E30 as the summer weekend toy both completely free of the M tax?
I really want an M car someday, not for the badge kudos but for the experience folk rave about. I don't want to do 100 mph everywhere but want to enjoy the B road blasts, my E30 is running on shagged suspension at the moment but it's still a hoot so logically a sorted M car with the fancypants running gear, diffs and magical engines (basically BMW turned up to 11) would be brilliant. I've never driven an M car and know this may be rose tinted glasses but this is part of the itch.
I haven't read up on the E36 M3 but imagine it'd be much closer to the E30 driving experience (coming from modern cars) without the £1,000,000 price tag for an E30 M3. I know the experience would be vastly different from my E30 and E92, that there is a debate on which is the one to have between the 3.0 and 3.2, and that subframe issues affected the E36 as well as the E46. I have no idea what to pay for a good / bad one, I've only posted the link as from the ad it does look to be a looked after example. I'd keep the E30 as it's my rust conversion project and move the E92 on.
I'd be using the E36 as a daily (~30 mile commute round trip), I do not have a garage (as the E30 lives in it) and know this is a horrendous, ruinous idea. I'll probably forget about the advert and move on but it looks great and there's an attraction to it being the underdog E36 rather than one of the more loved M cars. Would the E36 be exciting enough to justify the wallet destroying experience of owning it, or would I be better off enjoying the balance of the E92 for daily duties and the E30 as the summer weekend toy both completely free of the M tax?
Edited by SoupAnxiety on Thursday 18th February 22:29
I’ve not driven the E30 but from what I understand, the E36’s drive more like the E46 than they do the E30.
The market is at an odd point at the moment as values are rising but there are a lot of people asking strong money for fairly ropey cars. (The link is not working so I can’t tell you what I make of the linked car).
These cars are now 20 odd years old but very few of them have been properly restored, so they are full of 20 year old parts which are all past their sell by date.
Check out this youtube video. Not the end of the world but gives you a sense of what a £6K car might leave you with.
A fully sorted car is a very nice thing indeed but a ropey one will under perform from a handling perspective when compared to a good condition “lessor car”.
I own a cheap E36 M3 which I use for the track days ( Build thread here) and frankly it feels rather baggy despite replacing a number of bushes (which has improved things). Both my recently sold 130i and my Z4C both drive better on the road because the bushes, steering racks etc are much tighter.
On a track where the limited slip differential combines with all the track specific parts I’ve fitted, it’s a really nice track car but it definitely feels its miles when just pootling.
You’re probably looking more towards £10K for a properly sorted one and you will need to kiss a lot of frogs before you come across a car which is actually worth the money rather than finding someone chancing their arm with an old unrestored car that is now becoming “cool”.
As for the 3.0 vs 3.2 debate, just get a good one, as that will make far more difference than a few mid-lifecycle refresh items.
The market is at an odd point at the moment as values are rising but there are a lot of people asking strong money for fairly ropey cars. (The link is not working so I can’t tell you what I make of the linked car).
These cars are now 20 odd years old but very few of them have been properly restored, so they are full of 20 year old parts which are all past their sell by date.
Check out this youtube video. Not the end of the world but gives you a sense of what a £6K car might leave you with.
A fully sorted car is a very nice thing indeed but a ropey one will under perform from a handling perspective when compared to a good condition “lessor car”.
I own a cheap E36 M3 which I use for the track days ( Build thread here) and frankly it feels rather baggy despite replacing a number of bushes (which has improved things). Both my recently sold 130i and my Z4C both drive better on the road because the bushes, steering racks etc are much tighter.
On a track where the limited slip differential combines with all the track specific parts I’ve fitted, it’s a really nice track car but it definitely feels its miles when just pootling.
You’re probably looking more towards £10K for a properly sorted one and you will need to kiss a lot of frogs before you come across a car which is actually worth the money rather than finding someone chancing their arm with an old unrestored car that is now becoming “cool”.
As for the 3.0 vs 3.2 debate, just get a good one, as that will make far more difference than a few mid-lifecycle refresh items.
Edited by (steven) on Thursday 18th February 21:42
I would tend to agree with Steven. Ive had a few E36's, Evo's and non Evo's, both of which feel more akin to E46's than E30's. To complicate matters further there are a fair few expensive pups for sale at the moment.
How about selling the E30 (hear me out first!!) , keep your daily and buy one of these......it will give you 85% of the E30 M3 experience at considerably less money....you still get the E30 buzz and a genuine M engine but without having to sell a body part.
How about selling the E30 (hear me out first!!) , keep your daily and buy one of these......it will give you 85% of the E30 M3 experience at considerably less money....you still get the E30 buzz and a genuine M engine but without having to sell a body part.
The link is http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/b...
I included a trailing full stop which buggered up the link, sorry.
I included a trailing full stop which buggered up the link, sorry.
jonah35 said:
Honestly? You'd have 3 OK cars but a lot of money going out on them.
Doesn't seem logical to me
I'd sell my E92 but your point is valid. At the moment the E30 is the project and E92 the daily. An unreliable daily (E36) would be a bind very quick.Doesn't seem logical to me
steven said:
I’ve not driven the E30 but from what I understand, the E36’s drive more like the E46 than they do the E30.
The market is at an odd point at the moment as values are rising but there are a lot of people asking strong money for fairly ropey cars. (The link is not working so I can’t tell you what I make of the linked car).
These cars are now 20 odd years old but very few of them have been properly restored, so they are full of 20 year old parts which are all past their sell by date.
Check out this youtube video. Not the end of the world but gives you a sense of what a £6K car might leave you with.
A fully sorted car is a very nice thing indeed but a ropey one will under perform from a handling perspective when compared to a good condition “lessor car”.
I own a cheap E36 M3 which I use for the track days ( Build thread here) and frankly it feels rather baggy despite replacing a number of bushes (which has improved things). Both my recently sold 130i and my Z4C both drive better on the road because the bushes, steering racks etc are much tighter.
On a track where the limited slip differential combines with all the track specific parts I’ve fitted, it’s a really nice track car but it definitely feels its miles when just pootling.
You’re probably looking more towards £10K for a properly sorted one and you will need to kiss a lot of frogs before you come across a car which is actually worth the money rather than finding someone chancing their arm with an old unrestored car that is now becoming “cool”.
As for the 3.0 vs 3.2 debate, just get a good one, as that will make far more difference than a few mid-lifecycle refresh items.
My E30 was a not quite bottom but not sorted buy. I don't mind going in with eyes open and expecting to pay £££ to make something right, the attraction of this E36 was that it was sorted. But that's probably my lack of knowledge and belief it is sorted, rather than the reality. I bought my E92 on 126k miles when it was five years old and have replaced shocks and springs as they were shot. Consumables aren't so bad but the E30 has taught me that anything that can break will do with age. I'm not a #1 fan of an E36 as I have no experience of them but the main attraction was E30ish magic with a more modern package without the E30 silly value applied.The market is at an odd point at the moment as values are rising but there are a lot of people asking strong money for fairly ropey cars. (The link is not working so I can’t tell you what I make of the linked car).
These cars are now 20 odd years old but very few of them have been properly restored, so they are full of 20 year old parts which are all past their sell by date.
Check out this youtube video. Not the end of the world but gives you a sense of what a £6K car might leave you with.
A fully sorted car is a very nice thing indeed but a ropey one will under perform from a handling perspective when compared to a good condition “lessor car”.
I own a cheap E36 M3 which I use for the track days ( Build thread here) and frankly it feels rather baggy despite replacing a number of bushes (which has improved things). Both my recently sold 130i and my Z4C both drive better on the road because the bushes, steering racks etc are much tighter.
On a track where the limited slip differential combines with all the track specific parts I’ve fitted, it’s a really nice track car but it definitely feels its miles when just pootling.
You’re probably looking more towards £10K for a properly sorted one and you will need to kiss a lot of frogs before you come across a car which is actually worth the money rather than finding someone chancing their arm with an old unrestored car that is now becoming “cool”.
As for the 3.0 vs 3.2 debate, just get a good one, as that will make far more difference than a few mid-lifecycle refresh items.
mark.c said:
I would tend to agree with Steven. Ive had a few E36's, Evo's and non Evo's, both of which feel more akin to E46's than E30's. To complicate matters further there are a fair few expensive pups for sale at the moment.
How about selling the E30 (hear me out first!!) , keep your daily and buy one of these......it will give you 85% of the E30 M3 experience at considerably less money....you still get the E30 buzz and a genuine M engine but without having to sell a body part.
The E30 320is! Were they the Portuguese car to meet engine size regulations? I thought these were uber money these days. And if that is yours that is indeed a lovely motor! How do they sound? The M20B25 in my 325i makes me grin like a kid in a sweet shop just listening to it.How about selling the E30 (hear me out first!!) , keep your daily and buy one of these......it will give you 85% of the E30 M3 experience at considerably less money....you still get the E30 buzz and a genuine M engine but without having to sell a body part.
Edited by SoupAnxiety on Thursday 18th February 22:28
It is mine OP, they do fetch good money but nothing like the money that is currently being asked for E30 M3's. The market for pretty much everything is crazy at the moment though of course, as an example I bought my E30 M3 7 years ago and paid more for my 320is two years ago than I did for the M3.
How do they sound?...exactly the same as an M3, if an old 12 valve sound is your thing then you may not like the screaming 4 pot S14 noise. My 320 runs a carbon airbox and Alpha N with cams so is very very vocal at full chat! Very different to the creamy burble of your 325i.
Back to the original question though...if you can find a nice E36 for reasonable money then that could be the answer (I enjoyed every single one of mine) but an E46 is the better car and you would have a lot more choice and hopefully pup avoidance potential! (Or keep the 325i, buy a 320is, keep your daily and have all bases covered...just saying
)
How do they sound?...exactly the same as an M3, if an old 12 valve sound is your thing then you may not like the screaming 4 pot S14 noise. My 320 runs a carbon airbox and Alpha N with cams so is very very vocal at full chat! Very different to the creamy burble of your 325i.
Back to the original question though...if you can find a nice E36 for reasonable money then that could be the answer (I enjoyed every single one of mine) but an E46 is the better car and you would have a lot more choice and hopefully pup avoidance potential! (Or keep the 325i, buy a 320is, keep your daily and have all bases covered...just saying
) I have an e90 330i manual and an e36 M3 evo convertible.
I got the 330i after I had the M3 since prior to that my daily was a 320td!
I would say that the 330i is a great car and that engine is a great engine for the daily and comes alive when you want to shake things up a little.
Would I have the M3 and buy one knowing what I know when I already have the 330i - its a tough call - I love the M3 and it was my poster car as a kid and makes me smile just seeing it and knowing its mine and the pleasure when you hear that engine on full tilt really is something to experience - but is it massively different to the 330i - probably not as much as I hoped, which is praise to the 330i.
I haven't been in an e46 M3 but have read they are the better car.
I'm probably not helping you with the above - I guess from my perspective - the M3 is my dream and because of that I love it - its not a depreciating asset so to some extent I can justify owning it with little argument - am I tempted to sell it yes, but I know I would regret that.
Best way forwards if I were you would be to have a look - take a test drive in one and do your research and after that decide whether its that different to the 330i to justify it. As a daily the maintenance on one of these can be high, but Vanos isn't the big issue it used to be in that most specialists can fix them rather than replace them totally. And you will probably find that using it as a daily will be better than just as a weekend car for reliability.
Here my M3 at the Pistonhead meet at Goodwood in Dec, just to make things even harder...
I got the 330i after I had the M3 since prior to that my daily was a 320td!
I would say that the 330i is a great car and that engine is a great engine for the daily and comes alive when you want to shake things up a little.
Would I have the M3 and buy one knowing what I know when I already have the 330i - its a tough call - I love the M3 and it was my poster car as a kid and makes me smile just seeing it and knowing its mine and the pleasure when you hear that engine on full tilt really is something to experience - but is it massively different to the 330i - probably not as much as I hoped, which is praise to the 330i.
I haven't been in an e46 M3 but have read they are the better car.
I'm probably not helping you with the above - I guess from my perspective - the M3 is my dream and because of that I love it - its not a depreciating asset so to some extent I can justify owning it with little argument - am I tempted to sell it yes, but I know I would regret that.
Best way forwards if I were you would be to have a look - take a test drive in one and do your research and after that decide whether its that different to the 330i to justify it. As a daily the maintenance on one of these can be high, but Vanos isn't the big issue it used to be in that most specialists can fix them rather than replace them totally. And you will probably find that using it as a daily will be better than just as a weekend car for reliability.
Here my M3 at the Pistonhead meet at Goodwood in Dec, just to make things even harder...
Billy_Whizzzz said:
If you like the 6 in your 325i you may be disappointed by the 320is. And an e36 drives nothing like an e30. If you want an e36, I'd definitely get the e46 m3 which is like the e46 - just better, and newer.
I'm a fan of NA engines (so much so that I'm still not fed up of explaining why I bought a 330i instead of a 335i), I love the way the E30 sounds but suspect that the bulk of that is as it's from the pre-cat era when cars were not strangled.mark.c said:
It is mine OP, they do fetch good money but nothing like the money that is currently being asked for E30 M3's. The market for pretty much everything is crazy at the moment though of course, as an example I bought my E30 M3 7 years ago and paid more for my 320is two years ago than I did for the M3.
How do they sound?...exactly the same as an M3, if an old 12 valve sound is your thing then you may not like the screaming 4 pot S14 noise. My 320 runs a carbon airbox and Alpha N with cams so is very very vocal at full chat! Very different to the creamy burble of your 325i.
Back to the original question though...if you can find a nice E36 for reasonable money then that could be the answer (I enjoyed every single one of mine) but an E46 is the better car and you would have a lot more choice and hopefully pup avoidance potential! (Or keep the 325i, buy a 320is, keep your daily and have all bases covered...just saying )
E30 M3s have gone off the chart but I'm glad I bought my E30 when I did. £2,000 in 2012 for an E30 with rusty rear arches but otherwise pretty solid, taxed and MOT'd. I've chipped away (!) at resorting it but similar cars in the (much better than when I bought it) condition it is in go for £4,000 on a very bad day. It used to be that 325i Sports were the only ones people cared about but the range is getting pricey.How do they sound?...exactly the same as an M3, if an old 12 valve sound is your thing then you may not like the screaming 4 pot S14 noise. My 320 runs a carbon airbox and Alpha N with cams so is very very vocal at full chat! Very different to the creamy burble of your 325i.
Back to the original question though...if you can find a nice E36 for reasonable money then that could be the answer (I enjoyed every single one of mine) but an E46 is the better car and you would have a lot more choice and hopefully pup avoidance potential! (Or keep the 325i, buy a 320is, keep your daily and have all bases covered...just saying
) I don't think the 4 pot noise would bother me (I love the M20 but any E30 is free from washing machine noise of some newer cars), if ever I get the chance to look at a 320is I will. Do they share suspension components with the E30? I've never come across one for sale (not that I have been looking) but I would appreciate a test drive. I've driven a 318is but ended up going for the 325i as I preferred the torque of the six pot. And the sound, if I reverse onto my drive the reverb from the exhaust off the wall makes me grin.
bigalx said:
I have an e90 330i manual and an e36 M3 evo convertible.
I got the 330i after I had the M3 since prior to that my daily was a 320td!
I would say that the 330i is a great car and that engine is a great engine for the daily and comes alive when you want to shake things up a little.
Would I have the M3 and buy one knowing what I know when I already have the 330i - its a tough call - I love the M3 and it was my poster car as a kid and makes me smile just seeing it and knowing its mine and the pleasure when you hear that engine on full tilt really is something to experience - but is it massively different to the 330i - probably not as much as I hoped, which is praise to the 330i.
I haven't been in an e46 M3 but have read they are the better car.
I'm probably not helping you with the above - I guess from my perspective - the M3 is my dream and because of that I love it - its not a depreciating asset so to some extent I can justify owning it with little argument - am I tempted to sell it yes, but I know I would regret that.
Best way forwards if I were you would be to have a look - take a test drive in one and do your research and after that decide whether its that different to the 330i to justify it. As a daily the maintenance on one of these can be high, but Vanos isn't the big issue it used to be in that most specialists can fix them rather than replace them totally. And you will probably find that using it as a daily will be better than just as a weekend car for reliability.
Here my M3 at the Pistonhead meet at Goodwood in Dec, just to make things even harder...
The M car idea is to get something exciting but not fragile (in my head E30 = fragile, E36 = not so). As you have said the 330i is a brilliant car for the daily and balances all duties well BUT the praise I see for any BMW M car is that it is "all cars to all people". Perfect at carrying the kids and perfect at turning it up to 11. The 330i is perfect at carrying the kids but doesn't have the raw experience element to make it truly exciting. It's not a criticism as it is not meant to, it's a brilliant car, but the spark is what I think I am missing.I got the 330i after I had the M3 since prior to that my daily was a 320td!
I would say that the 330i is a great car and that engine is a great engine for the daily and comes alive when you want to shake things up a little.
Would I have the M3 and buy one knowing what I know when I already have the 330i - its a tough call - I love the M3 and it was my poster car as a kid and makes me smile just seeing it and knowing its mine and the pleasure when you hear that engine on full tilt really is something to experience - but is it massively different to the 330i - probably not as much as I hoped, which is praise to the 330i.
I haven't been in an e46 M3 but have read they are the better car.
I'm probably not helping you with the above - I guess from my perspective - the M3 is my dream and because of that I love it - its not a depreciating asset so to some extent I can justify owning it with little argument - am I tempted to sell it yes, but I know I would regret that.
Best way forwards if I were you would be to have a look - take a test drive in one and do your research and after that decide whether its that different to the 330i to justify it. As a daily the maintenance on one of these can be high, but Vanos isn't the big issue it used to be in that most specialists can fix them rather than replace them totally. And you will probably find that using it as a daily will be better than just as a weekend car for reliability.
Here my M3 at the Pistonhead meet at Goodwood in Dec, just to make things even harder...
Your E36 looks fantastic. Up until recently I didn't rate the design of the E36 but think in the past few years they have lost the old car image and moved firmly into classic.
Your point about if the M3 is different enough from the 330i to justify the purchase and running expense of the M3 is a good one. When I bought the 330i I wanted to avoid M car tax and silly item cost. But after living with it I've got to the opinion as above - something is missing. My old Suzuki Swift Sport was more fun on a B road, again I'm not comparing like for like and the E92 is brilliant at what it is for. I think I've bought a car too grown up for my years.
Are the E36 and E46s known for being as rusty as the E30 or is it just superficial outer arches which affects these? What about subframe fun?
Next move is to test drive an E36 M3 and E46 M3, then hunt for a good one if I'm suitably impressed.
SoupAnxiety said:
The link is .......
The car in question is probably worth a look but I would urge caution. I’m guessing and could be completely wrong but the advert reads as though it has been bought by someone who is out to flip the car for a quick buck rather than a long term owner.
Not the end of the world but the advert does seem to focus on the cosmetics and the “investment potential” rather than the mechanicals.
The car looks good in the pictures and has clearly had a good polish and the body work sorted, plus the alloys look like they have been recently done.
However the advert talks about an inspection 2, yet doesn’t mention having the valves adjusted (which is the biggest part of an inspection 2) and there is no mention of bushes or any other replacement parts.
Maybe the seller forgot to mention these points as he got too caught up in covering just how much of a rock solid investment the car is.
You can’t just service these cars for 20 years and expect them to still drive well. By now they will need a lot of “non-service” parts replacing. Maybe they have been done and the guy has just not seen fit to mention it or if I was cynical, I would guess the seller has picked this car up for £3.5K spent £2K sorting out the body, the service and generally making it look pretty and thrown in up at £9K.
No doubt the seller will be posting on here to prove me wrong in a second or two.
This will either put you off, or give you a good idea what to look for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10tlnACEhqw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10tlnACEhqw
mr_fibuli said:
This will either put you off, or give you a good idea what to look for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10tlnACEhqw
Poor guy. British weather isnt kind to old Beemers.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10tlnACEhqw
One thing to consider is the E36 to E46 m3 and bhp/tonne is near identical.
One is a much newer car
One the press loved one far less so but it followed a racing car for the Rd.
Personally I prefer the drive of the E46 M3 - though my time driving both is exceptionally limited probably no more than 5 miles in each but were driven exceptionally hard in the distance (one was on track one not)
One is a much newer car
One the press loved one far less so but it followed a racing car for the Rd.
Personally I prefer the drive of the E46 M3 - though my time driving both is exceptionally limited probably no more than 5 miles in each but were driven exceptionally hard in the distance (one was on track one not)
Output Flange said:
5 miles in each? That's an opinion to consider, definitely.
. For me out of those two I simply prefer the looks alone of the E46 and then the drive even if there might have been rose tinted glasses was simply epic. Flat out round a track great fun.
The E36 was fine but in this two horse race for me is always second best.
I've owned my estoril evo coupe for about 6 years or so. Some thoughts...
The e46 isn't faster if you're any good. Also, the floor issue is genuinely offputting. Seeing a couple stripped in the air shows you how unprepared most are for this.
The e36 is starting to feel a little special and dare i say it, even exclusive.
Prices, although inflated by some are ascending steadily now.
There are a lot of crappy ones out there though.
Maintaining one properly isn't cheap. Maintaining one improperly makes owning it pointless.
The only jump i'd make from mine now would be to an e92 m3 coupe. Give it a few years and it'll almost pay for one.
The e46 isn't faster if you're any good. Also, the floor issue is genuinely offputting. Seeing a couple stripped in the air shows you how unprepared most are for this.
The e36 is starting to feel a little special and dare i say it, even exclusive.
Prices, although inflated by some are ascending steadily now.
There are a lot of crappy ones out there though.
Maintaining one properly isn't cheap. Maintaining one improperly makes owning it pointless.
The only jump i'd make from mine now would be to an e92 m3 coupe. Give it a few years and it'll almost pay for one.
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