BMW M4 tires & Stability

[Mitesh.]

Hi Forum,

New to the forum, so please excuse any nube mistakes.

I've recently purchased m4 vert, (manual) and one thing I notice above and beyond my e93 M3 (now sold) is the M4 is very tail happy and loses traction very easily.
Some may like this but I like to have control over what the car doing, my rear tires are coming to an end so I'm looking at what tires people are running and found high levels of grip.

I know the competition package sort out some the issue which I see any recommendation?
Software update that can help to make the car more stable ?

Thank you in advance

[Steve Rance]

Changing tyres will make a difference but the main cause of the issue is the torque produced from the turbocharged power unit. This causes a real challenge to the chassis which has largely been engineered to utilise its driver aids to counter this as a primary function. Secondarily it is also trying to engage the driver through feedback. The problem is that most of the time near the threshold of traction, the chassis has already reacted via several systems before you’ve even got involved. That leads to a sensation of uncertainty as you experience movement through loss of traction followed by the reaction of the chassis to counter through traction aids. That makes things very difficult when trying to translate what is happening through your hands and the seat of your pants.

There are several things that you can do where your inputs will make a real difference to help the situation. Firstly you can turn in later and over rotate the car so that you are unwinding the steering a lot earlier on exit. This reduces the lateral load on the rear of the car and greatly helps it deploy the power of the engine. You will find the car much more settled when you accelerate. Basically you are looking to be mindful of asking anything of the rear tyres other than straight line deployment- if you wish to accelerate . And easier technique is to hold a constant throttle and lower revs on the exit phase and again wait for the steering to unload before spoiling up the turbo. Once you become accustomed to re calibrating your technique around the characteristics of the engine you will feel a lot more comfortable and confident driving it.

[M5 London]

Mitesh. said:

Hi Forum,

New to the forum, so please excuse any nube mistakes.

I've recently purchased m4 vert, (manual) and one thing I notice above and beyond my e93 M3 (now sold) is the M4 is very tail happy and loses traction very easily.
Some may like this but I like to have control over what the car doing, my rear tires are coming to an end so I'm looking at what tires people are running and found high levels of grip.

I know the competition package sort out some the issue which I see any recommendation?
Software update that can help to make the car more stable ?

Thank you in advance

BUT you still do have TOTAL control of the car.

Especially via throttle and steering inputs. Control these better and you'll see.

In terms of tyres most people recommend Michelin Pilot Super Sport and/or Michelin Pilot Sport 4S.

[Wills2]

How old is the car? As the latest I-step level changes the power delivery substantially making the car much more docile, PS4S tyres will also give more confidence in the wet and better grip at the rear.

[s2000db]

I've gone from PSS to PS4S on my M4, and there's a distinct reduction in traction light illumination, so I'd go for these if you're changing!

[ratty6464]

Steve Rance said:

Changing tyres will make a difference but the main cause of the issue is the torque produced from the turbocharged power unit. This causes a real challenge to the chassis which has largely been engineered to utilise its driver aids to counter this as a primary function. Secondarily it is also trying to engage the driver through feedback. The problem is that most of the time near the threshold of traction, the chassis has already reacted via several systems before you’ve even got involved. That leads to a sensation of uncertainty as you experience movement through loss of traction followed by the reaction of the chassis to counter through traction aids. That makes things very difficult when trying to translate what is happening through your hands and the seat of your pants.

There are several things that you can do where your inputs will make a real difference to help the situation. Firstly you can turn in later and over rotate the car so that you are unwinding the steering a lot earlier on exit. This reduces the lateral load on the rear of the car and greatly helps it deploy the power of the engine. You will find the car much more settled when you accelerate. Basically you are looking to be mindful of asking anything of the rear tyres other than straight line deployment- if you wish to accelerate . And easier technique is to hold a constant throttle and lower revs on the exit phase and again wait for the steering to unload before spoiling up the turbo. Once you become accustomed to re calibrating your technique around the characteristics of the engine you will feel a lot more comfortable and confident driving it.

Interesting reading, thanks for sharing

[AW10]

And worth getting the geo checked by someone that knows their onions. That may well not be the main daler.

[anonymous-user]

Steve Rance said:

Changing tyres will make a difference but the main cause of the issue is the torque produced from the turbocharged power unit. This causes a real challenge to the chassis which has largely been engineered to utilise its driver aids to counter this as a primary function. Secondarily it is also trying to engage the driver through feedback. The problem is that most of the time near the threshold of traction, the chassis has already reacted via several systems before you’ve even got involved. That leads to a sensation of uncertainty as you experience movement through loss of traction followed by the reaction of the chassis to counter through traction aids. That makes things very difficult when trying to translate what is happening through your hands and the seat of your pants.

There are several things that you can do where your inputs will make a real difference to help the situation. Firstly you can turn in later and over rotate the car so that you are unwinding the steering a lot earlier on exit. This reduces the lateral load on the rear of the car and greatly helps it deploy the power of the engine. You will find the car much more settled when you accelerate. Basically you are looking to be mindful of asking anything of the rear tyres other than straight line deployment- if you wish to accelerate . And easier technique is to hold a constant throttle and lower revs on the exit phase and again wait for the steering to unload before spoiling up the turbo. Once you become accustomed to re calibrating your technique around the characteristics of the engine you will feel a lot more comfortable and confident driving it.

Later turn-in for straighter deployment of power mirrors what Stuart Jones advised when he sat in with me at Croft in the similarly behaved M3.

I imagine the amount of torque available at low revs in an F8x is substantially different to that of the E9x, which in turn requires a change in technique.

[Steve Rance]

Yep. That is correct

[SebringMan]

M5 London said:

BUT you still do have TOTAL control of the car.

Especially via throttle and steering inputs. Control these better and you'll see.

In terms of tyres most people recommend Michelin Pilot Super Sport and/or Michelin Pilot Sport 4S.

Yes you do, but I sense what the OP is saying.

My mate's M4 manual is a real handful in the wet ; it's a 64 plate on 17k. Even cruising down the motorway at 70mph with almost no throttle has that being super nervous over the white lines! He's hoping new tyres will cure that. The only thing is he's on MPSSs, albeit near the limit (around 3-4mm). Hopefully with some fully treaded ones it won't be quite as iffy!

I know the 4S on my M3 are superb!

[Mitesh.]

Steve Rance said:

Changing tyres will make a difference but the main cause of the issue is the torque produced from the turbocharged power unit. This causes a real challenge to the chassis which has largely been engineered to utilise its driver aids to counter this as a primary function. Secondarily it is also trying to engage the driver through feedback. The problem is that most of the time near the threshold of traction, the chassis has already reacted via several systems before you’ve even got involved. That leads to a sensation of uncertainty as you experience movement through loss of traction followed by the reaction of the chassis to counter through traction aids. That makes things very difficult when trying to translate what is happening through your hands and the seat of your pants.

There are several things that you can do where your inputs will make a real difference to help the situation. Firstly you can turn in later and over rotate the car so that you are unwinding the steering a lot earlier on exit. This reduces the lateral load on the rear of the car and greatly helps it deploy the power of the engine. You will find the car much more settled when you accelerate. Basically you are looking to be mindful of asking anything of the rear tyres other than straight line deployment- if you wish to accelerate . And easier technique is to hold a constant throttle and lower revs on the exit phase and again wait for the steering to unload before spoiling up the turbo. Once you become accustomed to re calibrating your technique around the characteristics of the engine you will feel a lot more comfortable and confident driving it.

Thank you Steve, I will try and put this into practice, part of the problem is I don't get much time to drive the car as I work in the city.
But I have to say, that the car feels nervous in straight line, especially on bumpy roads, in the e93 had no issue putting the power done, just do not feel comfortable in the F83.

[Mitesh.]

M5 London said:

BUT you still do have TOTAL control of the car.

Especially via throttle and steering inputs. Control these better and you'll see.

In terms of tyres most people recommend Michelin Pilot Super Sport and/or Michelin Pilot Sport 4S.

Yes to a certain degree, but it still feels nervous in putting the power down, perhaps it because this is the first turbo driven car I've driven.

Thanks for the tyre info, i will do some reading on these

[Mitesh.]

Wills2 said:

How old is the car? As the latest I-step level changes the power delivery substantially making the car much more docile, PS4S tyres will also give more confidence in the wet and better grip at the rear.

The car is 65 plate it abut a year old with 8k on the clock bought from BMW.
I would like to learn more about 'I-step', is this a Software upgrade, done by me or dealership ?
looks like PS4S are the goto tyres. thanks, will do some reading on these

[Mitesh.]

SebringMan said:

Yes you do, but I sense what the OP is saying.

My mate's M4 manual is a real handful in the wet ; it's a 64 plate on 17k. Even cruising down the motorway at 70mph with almost no throttle has that being super nervous over the white lines! He's hoping new tyres will cure that. The only thing is he's on MPSSs, albeit near the limit (around 3-4mm). Hopefully with some fully treaded ones it won't be quite as iffy!

I know the 4S on my M3 are superb!

You've hit the nail on the head.
I've driven my car a few time on the motorway and it doesn’t feel…, the only way I can describe it is 'in-secure'.
When is your mate changing tyres, perhaps i need to bite the bullet and get them changed?

[RS Grant]

Mitesh. said:

When is your mate changing tyres, perhaps i need to bite the bullet and get them changed?

There was a big increase in grip when we changed from the OE Continental tyres to Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on our F80 LCI M3. It is also a manual car but never felt nervous or sketchy on the OE tyres, but grip levels have increased massively with the new rubber; that is comparing it to when the Contis were new rather than on their last legs too.

[SebringMan]

Mitesh. said:

You've hit the nail on the head.
I've driven my car a few time on the motorway and it doesn’t feel…, the only way I can describe it is 'in-secure'.
When is your mate changing tyres, perhaps i need to bite the bullet and get them changed?

His never really feels planted and he himself has had a few interesting moments! I can agree on that loose/insecure feeling! I really did draw the short straw when we had the random showers over the summer.

Him changing tyres depends on a few things.

1) If he goes to CP wheels ; he'll get tyres that way
2) When he next drives it ; it really is more of a summer/autumn toy.

I *think* he'll be going for MPS4Ss when he does.

[Stever]

Steve Rance said:

Changing tyres will make a difference but the main cause of the issue is the torque produced from the turbocharged power unit. This causes a real challenge to the chassis which has largely been engineered to utilise its driver aids to counter this as a primary function. Secondarily it is also trying to engage the driver through feedback. The problem is that most of the time near the threshold of traction, the chassis has already reacted via several systems before you’ve even got involved. That leads to a sensation of uncertainty as you experience movement through loss of traction followed by the reaction of the chassis to counter through traction aids. That makes things very difficult when trying to translate what is happening through your hands and the seat of your pants.

There are several things that you can do where your inputs will make a real difference to help the situation. Firstly you can turn in later and over rotate the car so that you are unwinding the steering a lot earlier on exit. This reduces the lateral load on the rear of the car and greatly helps it deploy the power of the engine. You will find the car much more settled when you accelerate. Basically you are looking to be mindful of asking anything of the rear tyres other than straight line deployment- if you wish to accelerate . And easier technique is to hold a constant throttle and lower revs on the exit phase and again wait for the steering to unload before spoiling up the turbo. Once you become accustomed to re calibrating your technique around the characteristics of the engine you will feel a lot more comfortable and confident driving it.

What a really good reply - driving is a fine skill to learn

[Steve Rance]

Mitesh. said:

Yes to a certain degree, but it still feels nervous in putting the power down, perhaps it because this is the first turbo driven car I've driven.

Thanks for the tyre info, i will do some reading on these

You could well be feeling the traction control systems cutting power to balance loss of traction. It happens very quickly but your body picks it up. next time you feel it, try to bank as much as you can to memory. Where in the corner were you? if on exit, was the steering still partially loaded? what were the road conditions? what was the road surface like? What gear were you in and where were you in the rev range?

Things tend to only feel vaigue and uncomfortable because they are unknown, once you begin to understand what is going on you can generally devise a strategy to deal with it.

[Mitesh.]

AW10 said:

And worth getting the geo checked by someone that knows their onions. That may well not be the main daler.

Are you saying that my Geometry on the car might be off ? Never considered that, would this stil be a concern if the car as only done 8k, I haven't owned it from new.

[Timbuktu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gs5W9_hvCQ&fe...