E92 M3 wont steer straight
Discussion
Just had my M3 geo setup by Wheels in Motion. This is not a complaint against them, just to give you an idea that it was setup by someone that knows what they are doing, I have been taking my cars to Tony for a few years now and would not go anywhere else. I had it setup back in March and have the same results...
The car is tight as anything now and drives really well. Its amazing what a difference a good geo setup can make to steering feel, suspension feel and the way the car reacts.
The problem I have is the car seems to steer slightly left. It doesn't pull or anything. Say I'm going down a straight motorway, level surface, it'll steer ever so slightly left, this is OK I can live with that. if there is a little bit of slope to the left this then seems to be very exaggerated and it irritates the hell out of me. Is there any way to fix this, maybe I could have Tony adjust the total toe? or have it steer ever so slightly left on the machine? I cant work out if anything is fecked on the car, Tony levered all the control arms to check the bushings and said they are all spot on plus the car drives perfectly now.
The steering wheel has a 'key' on it where it slides on the steering column, so I cant just move it a notch over to compensate. The car has brand new tyres all round.
Thanks!
The car is tight as anything now and drives really well. Its amazing what a difference a good geo setup can make to steering feel, suspension feel and the way the car reacts.
The problem I have is the car seems to steer slightly left. It doesn't pull or anything. Say I'm going down a straight motorway, level surface, it'll steer ever so slightly left, this is OK I can live with that. if there is a little bit of slope to the left this then seems to be very exaggerated and it irritates the hell out of me. Is there any way to fix this, maybe I could have Tony adjust the total toe? or have it steer ever so slightly left on the machine? I cant work out if anything is fecked on the car, Tony levered all the control arms to check the bushings and said they are all spot on plus the car drives perfectly now.
The steering wheel has a 'key' on it where it slides on the steering column, so I cant just move it a notch over to compensate. The car has brand new tyres all round.
Thanks!
I all you are saying above is correct, unless the car is falling off the camber of the road, the geo is likely incorrect.
Think about it bottom up.
Tyres all good?
Pressures all good?
All the bushes are good?
Ride height correct all around?
Steering wheel centred with equal length of track control arm left and right?
Steering sensor zero'd?
Geo asymmetry within spec?
Geo within limits?
Think about it bottom up.
Tyres all good?
Pressures all good?
All the bushes are good?
Ride height correct all around?
Steering wheel centred with equal length of track control arm left and right?
Steering sensor zero'd?
Geo asymmetry within spec?
Geo within limits?
stevesingo said:
I all you are saying above is correct, unless the car is falling off the camber of the road, the geo is likely incorrect.
Think about it bottom up.
Tyres all good?
Pressures all good?
All the bushes are good?
Ride height correct all around?
Steering wheel centred with equal length of track control arm left and right?
Steering sensor zero'd?
Geo asymmetry within spec?
Geo within limits?
Thanks, re the camber thing, i know cars like this do tend to track a little bit and camber does make steering look off, but the way it reacts left vs right is not normalThink about it bottom up.
Tyres all good?
Pressures all good?
All the bushes are good?
Ride height correct all around?
Steering wheel centred with equal length of track control arm left and right?
Steering sensor zero'd?
Geo asymmetry within spec?
Geo within limits?
Tyres all good - yes, new (I had uneven PS2 before in March and the results were exactly the same)
Pressures all good - yes, check them frequently
All the bushes are good - yes, ive looked and WIM looked with a crowbar
Ride height correct all around - yep, does not seem to be any issue with suspension springs or struts
Steering wheel centred with equal length of track control arm left and right - will check this
Steering sensor zero'd - looking into this thanks, I have DIS, ISTA etc but cant find the calibration for the E9*
Geo asymmetry within spec - yes, WIMs hunter showed it as being spot on.
Geo within limits - geo is spot on according to WIMs hunter.
Mike is this on a multi-lane road or single lane?
Are you sure it isn't the road camber? Might be worth a check by driving on the other side of the road if you have a quiet one near you and if it pulls slightly right then you have your answer.
Just suggesting somewhere to start that won't hit your wallet!
Are you sure it isn't the road camber? Might be worth a check by driving on the other side of the road if you have a quiet one near you and if it pulls slightly right then you have your answer.
Just suggesting somewhere to start that won't hit your wallet!
MikeGoodwin said:
Thanks, re the camber thing, i know cars like this do tend to track a little bit and camber does make steering look off, but the way it reacts left vs right is not normal
Tyres all good - yes, new (I had uneven PS2 before in March and the results were exactly the same)
Pressures all good - yes, check them frequently
All the bushes are good - yes, ive looked and WIM looked with a crowbar
Ride height correct all around - yep, does not seem to be any issue with suspension springs or struts
Steering wheel centred with equal length of track control arm left and right - will check this
Steering sensor zero'd - looking into this thanks, I have DIS, ISTA etc but cant find the calibration for the E9*
Geo asymmetry within spec - yes, WIMs hunter showed it as being spot on.
Geo within limits - geo is spot on according to WIMs hunter.
Can you post a printout of the geo before and after readings?Tyres all good - yes, new (I had uneven PS2 before in March and the results were exactly the same)
Pressures all good - yes, check them frequently
All the bushes are good - yes, ive looked and WIM looked with a crowbar
Ride height correct all around - yep, does not seem to be any issue with suspension springs or struts
Steering wheel centred with equal length of track control arm left and right - will check this
Steering sensor zero'd - looking into this thanks, I have DIS, ISTA etc but cant find the calibration for the E9*
Geo asymmetry within spec - yes, WIMs hunter showed it as being spot on.
Geo within limits - geo is spot on according to WIMs hunter.
Did you measure the ride height yourself on flat ground?
Does the car do it under power, steady state, braking?
If you read up on the geo setting procedure from BMW, it is quite an involved affair. Adding ballast to the car, checking ride height, resetting steering angle sensor etc etc. I don't understand why people avoid the dealers when having the geo done, particularly when there is an obvious issue.
Arrange a test drive with the technician/service manager and explain/demonstrate your concern. Confirm that they have experienced it and acknowledge that it is a issue.
I know some people claim to have experienced poor service from dealers, but most of the time it is poor expectation management. Having the dealer acknowledge that there is an issue is the best thing you can do to ensure the customer and the dealer are on the same song sheet. Once there is a common understanding of the issue, get common understanding of what you expect from them; for the car to drive straight and true. If they do a geo check, you want a before adjustment print out of the geo, before adjustment printout of the Steering Angle Sensor. If there are any adjustments made, post adjustment printouts. If the issue is not resolved, you have evidence as to what has been done.
Whenever I have had geo done at my BMW dealer, the car has always come back driving straight and true.
Leon R said:
Mike is this on a multi-lane road or single lane?
Are you sure it isn't the road camber? Might be worth a check by driving on the other side of the road if you have a quiet one near you and if it pulls slightly right then you have your answer.
Just suggesting somewhere to start that won't hit your wallet!
Thanks Leon, single or multi lane. I know that the camber in the road will cause this but in my mind its excessive. I will try the driving on other side of road thing. Just feels excessive to me in the way it steers left.Are you sure it isn't the road camber? Might be worth a check by driving on the other side of the road if you have a quiet one near you and if it pulls slightly right then you have your answer.
Just suggesting somewhere to start that won't hit your wallet!
stevesingo said:
Can you post a printout of the geo before and after readings?
Did you measure the ride height yourself on flat ground?
Does the car do it under power, steady state, braking?
If you read up on the geo setting procedure from BMW, it is quite an involved affair. Adding ballast to the car, checking ride height, resetting steering angle sensor etc etc. I don't understand why people avoid the dealers when having the geo done, particularly when there is an obvious issue.
Arrange a test drive with the technician/service manager and explain/demonstrate your concern. Confirm that they have experienced it and acknowledge that it is a issue.
I know some people claim to have experienced poor service from dealers, but most of the time it is poor expectation management. Having the dealer acknowledge that there is an issue is the best thing you can do to ensure the customer and the dealer are on the same song sheet. Once there is a common understanding of the issue, get common understanding of what you expect from them; for the car to drive straight and true. If they do a geo check, you want a before adjustment print out of the geo, before adjustment printout of the Steering Angle Sensor. If there are any adjustments made, post adjustment printouts. If the issue is not resolved, you have evidence as to what has been done.
Whenever I have had geo done at my BMW dealer, the car has always come back driving straight and true.
Let me have a good look this evening mate, ill measure the tie rod threads. Ride height might be a pain. Ill post up geo from WIM as well when I get home.Did you measure the ride height yourself on flat ground?
Does the car do it under power, steady state, braking?
If you read up on the geo setting procedure from BMW, it is quite an involved affair. Adding ballast to the car, checking ride height, resetting steering angle sensor etc etc. I don't understand why people avoid the dealers when having the geo done, particularly when there is an obvious issue.
Arrange a test drive with the technician/service manager and explain/demonstrate your concern. Confirm that they have experienced it and acknowledge that it is a issue.
I know some people claim to have experienced poor service from dealers, but most of the time it is poor expectation management. Having the dealer acknowledge that there is an issue is the best thing you can do to ensure the customer and the dealer are on the same song sheet. Once there is a common understanding of the issue, get common understanding of what you expect from them; for the car to drive straight and true. If they do a geo check, you want a before adjustment print out of the geo, before adjustment printout of the Steering Angle Sensor. If there are any adjustments made, post adjustment printouts. If the issue is not resolved, you have evidence as to what has been done.
Whenever I have had geo done at my BMW dealer, the car has always come back driving straight and true.
Power or braking doesn't affect this, as said the car does not pull or anything, it just settles slightly off to the left which is irritating but then camber in the road seems to really amplify this, badly to the point I am thinking what the F. Considering most roads have camber in them here in the UK, its a constantly irritating thing.
re-BMW, honestly I prefer to avoid them where possible not only for cost but due to bad experiences in the past with other BMWs. I didn't know they would have done anything different to say Kwik fit. If they really do make the effort to go to such lengths to get the alignment correct then thats good news. Ill see how I get on with zeroing that sensor first but dont know if Ill be able to get hold of ista-d
Leon R said:
Mike is this on a multi-lane road or single lane?
Are you sure it isn't the road camber? Might be worth a check by driving on the other side of the road if you have a quiet one near you and if it pulls slightly right then you have your answer.
Just suggesting somewhere to start that won't hit your wallet!
This was exactly what i was going to post as well, often roads do camber left slightly (for drainage) so it could well be worth checking on another road, or another type of road, do you have any access to an airfield, track or private road large enough to test and see if you can replicate the issue.Are you sure it isn't the road camber? Might be worth a check by driving on the other side of the road if you have a quiet one near you and if it pulls slightly right then you have your answer.
Just suggesting somewhere to start that won't hit your wallet!
You could always have a 2nd opinion on another wheel aligner - i think the ones used by my local dealer, and many bmw specialists is a hunter one.
Hope you get it sorted.
Andy
I don't think you need to measure tie rod threads - just count the number of turns from centre to full left lock and from centre to full right lock. They should be the same but even if they're not that should not make the car pull.
And you can measure ride height on flat ground with a tape measure from the bottom of each wheel lip through the wheel's centre line to the wheel arch. I think maximum allowable difference between left and right is 10mm.
And do post up your before and after numbers.
I'm not keen on main dealer geo setups. Their definition of good enough is all the numbers within tolerance but they can be quite happy with a parameter to be at one end of the range on one side and at the other end of the range on the other side and that's good enough for them. They'll also let a road car go out the door with the rear camber at its maximum negative value which will wear the inner rear edges of the tyres prematurely. Minimum negative camber is just fine for most people but they would sell fewer tyres. Many don't actually understand the effects of the various settings and just look to get all the figures green and therefore the box is ticked.
And you can measure ride height on flat ground with a tape measure from the bottom of each wheel lip through the wheel's centre line to the wheel arch. I think maximum allowable difference between left and right is 10mm.
And do post up your before and after numbers.
I'm not keen on main dealer geo setups. Their definition of good enough is all the numbers within tolerance but they can be quite happy with a parameter to be at one end of the range on one side and at the other end of the range on the other side and that's good enough for them. They'll also let a road car go out the door with the rear camber at its maximum negative value which will wear the inner rear edges of the tyres prematurely. Minimum negative camber is just fine for most people but they would sell fewer tyres. Many don't actually understand the effects of the various settings and just look to get all the figures green and therefore the box is ticked.
Could be a slightly sticky caliper on the left side? Check if one of the wheels is hotter than the other? I had this on my old GTI-6, the front left caliper wasn't releasing properly and the car was pulling left. I thought it several things like yourself but only when I was checking tyre pressures after a decent 40 mile run I noticed the front left was really radiating a lot of heat. Getting the caliper refurbished fixed it.
Also had a dodgy tyre cause this on an old Nissan Almera my parents gave to me when I was without a car. Mechanic reckoned the cord was twisted under the carcase.
Also had a dodgy tyre cause this on an old Nissan Almera my parents gave to me when I was without a car. Mechanic reckoned the cord was twisted under the carcase.
AW10 said:
I don't think you need to measure tie rod threads - just count the number of turns from centre to full left lock and from centre to full right lock. They should be the same but even if they're not that should not make the car pull.
And you can measure ride height on flat ground with a tape measure from the bottom of each wheel lip through the wheel's centre line to the wheel arch. I think maximum allowable difference between left and right is 10mm.
And do post up your before and after numbers.
I'm not keen on main dealer geo setups. Their definition of good enough is all the numbers within tolerance but they can be quite happy with a parameter to be at one end of the range on one side and at the other end of the range on the other side and that's good enough for them. They'll also let a road car go out the door with the rear camber at its maximum negative value which will wear the inner rear edges of the tyres prematurely. Minimum negative camber is just fine for most people but they would sell fewer tyres. Many don't actually understand the effects of the various settings and just look to get all the figures green and therefore the box is ticked.
Turning the wheel from lock to lock will only move the rack from lock to lock. If the tie rod lengths are unequal, then the rack is not centred between the wheels and the ackerman angle will be different from side to side as the inner fixed point fo the tie rods is different in relation to the centreline of the vehicle.And you can measure ride height on flat ground with a tape measure from the bottom of each wheel lip through the wheel's centre line to the wheel arch. I think maximum allowable difference between left and right is 10mm.
And do post up your before and after numbers.
I'm not keen on main dealer geo setups. Their definition of good enough is all the numbers within tolerance but they can be quite happy with a parameter to be at one end of the range on one side and at the other end of the range on the other side and that's good enough for them. They'll also let a road car go out the door with the rear camber at its maximum negative value which will wear the inner rear edges of the tyres prematurely. Minimum negative camber is just fine for most people but they would sell fewer tyres. Many don't actually understand the effects of the various settings and just look to get all the figures green and therefore the box is ticked.
Ref dealers. This is why you ask for a before and after and you set out what you expect when you drop the car off. IIRC, BMW have an individual wheel tolerance and a asymmetry tolerance which is much tighter. I've had two alignments done at my local BMW dealer in recent years and both have been spot on to drive with minimal asymmetry.
stevesingo said:
Turning the wheel from lock to lock will only move the rack from lock to lock. If the tie rod lengths are unequal, then the rack is not centred between the wheels and the ackerman angle will be different from side to side as the inner fixed point fo the tie rods is different in relation to the centreline of the vehicle.
Ref dealers. This is why you ask for a before and after and you set out what you expect when you drop the car off. IIRC, BMW have an individual wheel tolerance and a asymmetry tolerance which is much tighter. I've had two alignments done at my local BMW dealer in recent years and both have been spot on to drive with minimal asymmetry.
I think we're saying the same thing? For the tie rod lengths to be unequal the rack bar would not be centred within the steering mech and so the number of turns to one side would be different than the turns to the other?Ref dealers. This is why you ask for a before and after and you set out what you expect when you drop the car off. IIRC, BMW have an individual wheel tolerance and a asymmetry tolerance which is much tighter. I've had two alignments done at my local BMW dealer in recent years and both have been spot on to drive with minimal asymmetry.
That said ackmann angle only comes into play when a car is not travelling in a straight line?
Perhaps it's just my dealer but their KDS process is crap. I have a lovely all green print out from them and two shagged rear tyres 8K miles later with threads showing on the inside shoulders. Took it to an alignment specialist and their readings were rather different with several numbers well out of tolerance. Their conclusion was that I could not have caused this through driving, kerbs etc and that after the BMW main dealer replaced some seized fasteners the suspension was under preload and/or they didn't resettle the car after making big adjustments and so the alignment was wrong the moment it was driven away. Had it set properly by someone who understands the implications of what they're doing and tyre wear has been nice and even since.
March's Geo:
Wheels In Motion by Michael Goodwin, on Flickr
Sept Geo
WIM 2 by Michael Goodwin, on Flickr
Theres no problem with pulling everyone its just steering settling WAYYYY over to the left when theres camber in the road and on a flat surface the steering hangs slightly left. No issues with brakes or pulling to one side.
Tried the other side of the road thing, it hangs right, but only a bit and only what I was expecting from the roads camber.
Had trouble with ISTA D last night so still not looked at steering angle
Maybe I should just sell it
I also have a Kwick Fit hunter read out a week following the one in March. Its different readings, I let them sort the steering out and they f
ked the ride. Its not driven right until I got it redone last week at WIM.
Wheels In Motion by Michael Goodwin, on FlickrSept Geo
WIM 2 by Michael Goodwin, on FlickrTheres no problem with pulling everyone its just steering settling WAYYYY over to the left when theres camber in the road and on a flat surface the steering hangs slightly left. No issues with brakes or pulling to one side.
Tried the other side of the road thing, it hangs right, but only a bit and only what I was expecting from the roads camber.
Had trouble with ISTA D last night so still not looked at steering angle
Maybe I should just sell it
I also have a Kwick Fit hunter read out a week following the one in March. Its different readings, I let them sort the steering out and they f
ked the ride. Its not driven right until I got it redone last week at WIM.Edited by MikeGoodwin on Wednesday 12th September 09:06
Funny you mention this Mikegoodwin.
I bought a family wagon (3 year old car) 2 weeks ago and decided to get my alignment checked on it.
It drove fine before hand but apparently after a "just a small adjustment needed" my steering wheel sits to the left to keep it straight and like you it really struggles sometimes depending on the camber of the road: almost like fighting with the car to keep it straight. I have not had this in the 900 miles I drove before the alignment change. Took it back straight away and was a bit better but same problem. Wish I had not bothered to have it checked.
I usually let these things go but I phoned the garage (not WIM) and told them it was still worse than when I brought it in! they said they would check it and resolve.
What is the point of a top of the range hunter machine if you can't use it correctly.
Personally if I were you I would get it into BMW, they have machines (KDS) which specifically have BMW parameters and settings. I have had KDS done on BMWs a few times and its always came out spot on. I think sometimes too much credit is given to independants suggesting how amazing they are.
I bought a family wagon (3 year old car) 2 weeks ago and decided to get my alignment checked on it.
It drove fine before hand but apparently after a "just a small adjustment needed" my steering wheel sits to the left to keep it straight and like you it really struggles sometimes depending on the camber of the road: almost like fighting with the car to keep it straight. I have not had this in the 900 miles I drove before the alignment change. Took it back straight away and was a bit better but same problem. Wish I had not bothered to have it checked.
I usually let these things go but I phoned the garage (not WIM) and told them it was still worse than when I brought it in! they said they would check it and resolve.
What is the point of a top of the range hunter machine if you can't use it correctly.
Personally if I were you I would get it into BMW, they have machines (KDS) which specifically have BMW parameters and settings. I have had KDS done on BMWs a few times and its always came out spot on. I think sometimes too much credit is given to independants suggesting how amazing they are.
I'm not surprised you weren't happy after the March alignment - the left front has almost half a degree more camber than the right. This is a perfect example of all green numbers but significant differences between left and right which you will quickly notice if you're all at perceptive. A bit more front toe would have helped straight-line stability and reduced the car's tendency to wander and follow lines and ruts in the road. The toe is near the bottom of the scale but at least even left to right.
The Sept front camber numbers are much closer - did Kwik Fit adjust the cambers between March and Sept? It looks like KF gave you negative front toe which will make the car quite lively and keen to change direction. And tiring after a while.
The Sept numbers otherwise look broadly OK. More left/right symmetry would be good.
The 3/8s of degree caster difference is larger than in should be but I don't believe it can be adjusted. This is almost certainly the cause of the car wanting to drift left more with road camber than it wants to drift right. I'm not sure what can be done to counteract this. More toe might help.
All this presupposes that the tyres pressures were correct and consistent across geos and that you haven't got a massive difference in tyre wear.
The Sept front camber numbers are much closer - did Kwik Fit adjust the cambers between March and Sept? It looks like KF gave you negative front toe which will make the car quite lively and keen to change direction. And tiring after a while.
The Sept numbers otherwise look broadly OK. More left/right symmetry would be good.
The 3/8s of degree caster difference is larger than in should be but I don't believe it can be adjusted. This is almost certainly the cause of the car wanting to drift left more with road camber than it wants to drift right. I'm not sure what can be done to counteract this. More toe might help.
All this presupposes that the tyres pressures were correct and consistent across geos and that you haven't got a massive difference in tyre wear.
Slippydiff said:
No need to sell it yet !!
If you want to get it sorted, there's only one place to go, Chris Franklin at Center Gravity. He will find out what the problem is, and I guarantee he'll sort it out. It may not be cheap, but if you want the car to drive, handle, grip as it's makers intended, he's your man. And the sooner you get it booked in, the sooner he'll look at it.
Yeah a guy at work rates him very highly actually. 240 mile round trip for me. If you want to get it sorted, there's only one place to go, Chris Franklin at Center Gravity. He will find out what the problem is, and I guarantee he'll sort it out. It may not be cheap, but if you want the car to drive, handle, grip as it's makers intended, he's your man. And the sooner you get it booked in, the sooner he'll look at it.
I will look into that place and give him a call I know it'll cost me 100's though which i cant afford any time soon I dont think.AW10 said:
I'm not surprised you weren't happy after the March alignment - the left front has almost half a degree more camber than the right. This is a perfect example of all green numbers but significant differences between left and right which you will quickly notice if you're all at perceptive. A bit more front toe would have helped straight-line stability and reduced the car's tendency to wander and follow lines and ruts in the road. The toe is near the bottom of the scale but at least even left to right.
The Sept front camber numbers are much closer - did Kwik Fit adjust the cambers between March and Sept? It looks like KF gave you negative front toe which will make the car quite lively and keen to change direction. And tiring after a while.
The Sept numbers otherwise look broadly OK. More left/right symmetry would be good.
The 3/8s of degree caster difference is larger than in should be but I don't believe it can be adjusted. This is almost certainly the cause of the car wanting to drift left more with road camber than it wants to drift right. I'm not sure what can be done to counteract this. More toe might help.
All this presupposes that the tyres pressures were correct and consistent across geos and that you haven't got a massive difference in tyre wear.
Brand new tyres and correct pressures! - interesting about the caster. its not adjustable on an M3. I will look into this. Starting to think WIM maybe not that good then, Ive never had a car thats so fussy like the M3 is.The Sept front camber numbers are much closer - did Kwik Fit adjust the cambers between March and Sept? It looks like KF gave you negative front toe which will make the car quite lively and keen to change direction. And tiring after a while.
The Sept numbers otherwise look broadly OK. More left/right symmetry would be good.
The 3/8s of degree caster difference is larger than in should be but I don't believe it can be adjusted. This is almost certainly the cause of the car wanting to drift left more with road camber than it wants to drift right. I'm not sure what can be done to counteract this. More toe might help.
All this presupposes that the tyres pressures were correct and consistent across geos and that you haven't got a massive difference in tyre wear.
After the WIM March alignment I had the same problem I do now where it feels good to drive but theres an obvious issue with the steering.
So took it to Kwik Fit, asked them to adjust the total toe so the steering was correct (notice the readings are different on WIMs to Kwik Fit inside of a week or 2:
Quick st the same day by Michael Goodwin, on FlickrThe Steering position got better after this but not good, but the car didn't feel right and more recently (August) the car handled like absolute s
t, had bump steer, I actually thought the bushings were shagged and almost replaced all the control arms up front - after the Sept WIM alignment all those problems have gone away which is why I say it feels nice and tight to drive now. 3 series BMWs seem to be really sensitive to geo and wheel balance.
My e46 gave me endless trouble until I discovered the steering shaft u/j was slightly stiff, the shaft runs very close to the exhaust manifold and the grease eventually dries out resulting in very slight stiffness giving weird steering.
A previous poster mentioned sticking calipers, this is a common problem as well, causing drifting and wheel vibration but the OP has discounted this.
My e46 gave me endless trouble until I discovered the steering shaft u/j was slightly stiff, the shaft runs very close to the exhaust manifold and the grease eventually dries out resulting in very slight stiffness giving weird steering.
A previous poster mentioned sticking calipers, this is a common problem as well, causing drifting and wheel vibration but the OP has discounted this.
Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff