E9X M3 actual power figures less than claimed?
Discussion
Was watching JayEmm's video on the E92 M3. In it, he mentions that few cars actually achieved the BMW claimed power figure (of 414bhp) and most run around 390bhp.
Is that true?
I know the E36 M3 Evo's claimed 321bhp was considered optimistic. Similar situation here?
Is that true?
I know the E36 M3 Evo's claimed 321bhp was considered optimistic. Similar situation here?
The B7 RS4 is the same. Many people dyno'd their cars and found sub 400bhp as well, despite the 420bhp claims from Audi.
My 23 year old E36 M3 Evo would struggle to get anywhere near the 321bhp (reality 310bhp) that BMW said it produced despite no VANOS issues and having been looked after very well throughout its life.
My 23 year old E36 M3 Evo would struggle to get anywhere near the 321bhp (reality 310bhp) that BMW said it produced despite no VANOS issues and having been looked after very well throughout its life.
g3org3y said:
Was watching JayEmm's video on the E92 M3. In it, he mentions that few cars actually achieved the BMW claimed power figure (of 414bhp) and most run around 390bhp.
Is that true?
I know the E36 M3 Evo's claimed 321bhp was considered optimistic. Similar situation here?
You'd need to speak all those that have had their cars dyno'd I suppose. Unless you're drag racing/circuit racing/track days, I really can't see that its really that important to be within 5 - 10% of claimed power ... how many of us would tell? My E92 M3 'feels' quick enough for me, whether its 350 or 420 bhp. Is that true?
I know the E36 M3 Evo's claimed 321bhp was considered optimistic. Similar situation here?
Based on what most manufacturers tell us, it wouldn't be out of the question for BMW to talk up their power claims!
JEA1K said:
You'd need to speak all those that have had their cars dyno'd I suppose. Unless you're drag racing/circuit racing/track days, I really can't see that its really that important to be within 5 - 10% of claimed power ... how many of us would tell? My E92 M3 'feels' quick enough for me, whether its 350 or 420 bhp.
Based on what most manufacturers tell us, it wouldn't be out of the question for BMW to talk up their power claims!
I think it is generally accepted that BMW exaggerated the horsepower claim on their NA M engines, while all their M turbo engines have made more horsepower than advertised (S55, S63, S58 all 5-15 % above)Based on what most manufacturers tell us, it wouldn't be out of the question for BMW to talk up their power claims!
cerb4.5lee said:
I wonder if that is why I wasn't that blown away with the performance of mine then. At 100 plus though I always thought that it got its skates on to be fair.
Yeah i'd agree on that. Mine were very quick once they picked up their skirts. They felt good for the horsepower figures at that point.That said, my 2008 manual felt nowhere near as ballistic as my 2011 DCT Comp Pack, even at high revs. The latter had a few breathing tweaks but nothing too major.
KPB1973 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I wonder if that is why I wasn't that blown away with the performance of mine then. At 100 plus though I always thought that it got its skates on to be fair.
Yeah i'd agree on that. Mine were very quick once they picked up their skirts. They felt good for the horsepower figures at that point.That said, my 2008 manual felt nowhere near as ballistic as my 2011 DCT Comp Pack, even at high revs. The latter had a few breathing tweaks but nothing too major.
TheAngryDog said:
The gearing on the DCT cars is different which may have helped, more gears which are shorter.
Yes, very true. It certainly felt a faster car in pretty much every situation, even when completely flat out. I know people like the romanticism of the manual, the DCT really wakes that engine up and helps paper over its weaknesses.KPB1973 said:
TheAngryDog said:
The gearing on the DCT cars is different which may have helped, more gears which are shorter.
Yes, very true. It certainly felt a faster car in pretty much every situation, even when completely flat out. I know people like the romanticism of the manual, the DCT really wakes that engine up and helps paper over its weaknesses.g3org3y said:
Was watching JayEmm's video on the E92 M3. In it, he mentions that few cars actually achieved the BMW claimed power figure (of 414bhp) and most run around 390bhp.
Is that true?
I know the E36 M3 Evo's claimed 321bhp was considered optimistic. Similar situation here?
Ah, JayEmm and the old "received wisdom" thing, with no evidence to back it up.Is that true?
I know the E36 M3 Evo's claimed 321bhp was considered optimistic. Similar situation here?
Germany's DIN body is (or used to be) quite hot on manufacturers over-stating power outputs, so to be safe they tend to understate their numbers. And they certainly do with the current turbo M-cars by a good 30+hp with the original M4
Figures achieved on rolling roads are only ever power at the wheels, and then you have to apply a correction factor to allow for transmission losses between flywheel and road wheels. Different operators/tuners apply different factors so it is difficult to compare like with like.
Different ambient temperatures/pressures/humidities also have to be corrected for. And correction factors can easily be changed to "enhance" the effect of tuning mods.
I was in correspondence with a tuner in Germany, who stated absolutely that transmission losses with E9x DCT were much greater than with the manual, which then evens up the benefit of lower gearing with DCT.
And did JayEmm also state that in DCT "drive" (i.e. auto) mode, there was no sport setting and the transmission just changes as quickly to 7th as possible. What happened to the 5 drivelogic settings in "drive" mode?
And I like chunky steering wheels not skinny ones. In spite of received wisdom....
I have to say I found Jayemm video that a bit of a hard watch. No real discussion about the handling or the power delivery outside of high revs, contradictory ramblings about the DCT and I never found the ride in mine to be a problem.
'Replacing rod bearings at regular intervals' ? How many times in the car's life is he realistically suggesting it to be done?
'Replacing rod bearings at regular intervals' ? How many times in the car's life is he realistically suggesting it to be done?
KPB1973 said:
I have to say I found Jayemm video that a bit of a hard watch. No real discussion about the handling or the power delivery outside of high revs, contradictory ramblings about the DCT and I never found the ride in mine to be a problem.
I usually enjoy most of his reviews, but I agree that this one seemed very disjointed and a touch haphazard for me. He got the max power(revs) rpm figure wrong as well...which annoyed me too! KPB1973 said:
I have to say I found Jayemm video that a bit of a hard watch. No real discussion about the handling or the power delivery outside of high revs, contradictory ramblings about the DCT and I never found the ride in mine to be a problem.
'Replacing rod bearings at regular intervals' ? How many times in the car's life is he realistically suggesting it to be done?
Yes - at the end he seemed to lose any logical/coherent thought processes.'Replacing rod bearings at regular intervals' ? How many times in the car's life is he realistically suggesting it to be done?
In general, I would say his videos are a good 50% too long and he needs to wind-down a certain amount of pompousness (or is it pomposity?).
20 minutes could be edited to 10 frequently.
Producing a huge amount of content now, somehow,
Sometimes I think forum folk can be a bit harsh on people like Jayemm. It was an interesting video, albeit many in accuracies included (8600 rpm limit). Clarkson never let the truth get in the way of a good story, and to be honest the content was far more enjoyable for it. We can't expect embryonic YouTubers to be faultless when they're putting together these videos on a tight budget.
He touched on what makes the car great and how it is compromised in other areas, many people don't know the additional shift modes of these cars with TCS off, or GTS DCT software updates etc. He prefers the RS4 and the doesn't think the E92 M3 makes the claimed horsepower and now we're talking about him on the M Power forum, mission accomplished Jayemm!
He touched on what makes the car great and how it is compromised in other areas, many people don't know the additional shift modes of these cars with TCS off, or GTS DCT software updates etc. He prefers the RS4 and the doesn't think the E92 M3 makes the claimed horsepower and now we're talking about him on the M Power forum, mission accomplished Jayemm!
The rev limit bit was a mistake, it can be raised to 8600 though cant it? My dodgy memory there.
For the power figures, AReeve I am sure dynos all cars that get supercharged before they do and I recall standard cars never making claimed power. Nothing surprising there, they wont weigh what BMW claim either.
As for the rest of the review, you win some, lose some. It is what it is. I had the choice between shooting something or shooting nothing, Adam and I had busy schedules and we got three videos done in the space of a few hours. I'm never going to get everything right.
For the power figures, AReeve I am sure dynos all cars that get supercharged before they do and I recall standard cars never making claimed power. Nothing surprising there, they wont weigh what BMW claim either.
As for the rest of the review, you win some, lose some. It is what it is. I had the choice between shooting something or shooting nothing, Adam and I had busy schedules and we got three videos done in the space of a few hours. I'm never going to get everything right.
jayemm89 said:
The rev limit bit was a mistake, it can be raised to 8600 though cant it? My dodgy memory there.
For the power figures, AReeve I am sure dynos all cars that get supercharged before they do and I recall standard cars never making claimed power. Nothing surprising there, they wont weigh what BMW claim either.
As for the rest of the review, you win some, lose some. It is what it is. I had the choice between shooting something or shooting nothing, Adam and I had busy schedules and we got three videos done in the space of a few hours. I'm never going to get everything right.
Very good of you to get involved with the thread Jay. For the power figures, AReeve I am sure dynos all cars that get supercharged before they do and I recall standard cars never making claimed power. Nothing surprising there, they wont weigh what BMW claim either.
As for the rest of the review, you win some, lose some. It is what it is. I had the choice between shooting something or shooting nothing, Adam and I had busy schedules and we got three videos done in the space of a few hours. I'm never going to get everything right.
It did seem a little rushed to me. I was really looking forward to watching it though because I thoroughly enjoyed your Z4M Roadster review. I especially love watching your reviews of cars that I've had, and I also really enjoyed your 370Z Nismo review as well.
This one didn't quite live up to my expectations, whereas pretty much all of the others I've watched of yours have though to be fair. You certainly review some cracking cars for sure.
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