E36 M3 Handling and Feedback - how good can it really get?
Discussion
I have an E36 M3 Evo and also a Boxster s 550 Anniversary (04).
From a performance perspective, the Evo is as follows:
Well serviced
Weitec Gt Coilovers with new rear shocks
15mm spacers on front wheels to allow suspension clearance
17" Sunflowers with new Goodyr Eagle F1 Asymmetric all round
Bushes - stock all round, but good condition
E46 M3 Convertible rear top mounts with reinforcement plates
Eibach anti roll bars (on softer setting)
Fully geo'd
Convertible cross brace
Brakes - Performance friction Z rated pads, goodridge hoses, race brake fluid
New gear linkage (OEM)
BMW Performance (E90) weighted short shift knob
Dave F induction kit
The Evo is a great car - I love the look of the E36 and its fun to drive - I recently took it to the Isle of Man and thought it was hilarious over the Mountain road. Its faster in a straight line than the Boxster and makes a fantastic noise. In a private road drag race, its quicker than a friends 996 C4s (albeit tiptronic).
I bought it as: I've always wanted an Evo, I needed something with back seats, the plentiful available mods are appealing, being a car of relatively low overall value, I can mod it without worrying about impact on residuals, the E36 M3 seems to be widely and crediby used as a track day car by some fairly serious drivers - a pretty healthy endorsement. I have not tracked it, but the thought that I could was quite appealing.
But - after 7 months of ownership and a decent level of investment am wonderin what to do - it does not reward the driver in the same way as the Boxster. It rolls more through the bends and the steering just doesnt communicate in the same way and is obviously lower geared lock to lock. The gear change just isnt as slick.
There's a lot of snobbery about Boxsters, but if you ignore the Clarkson comments, the reality is that they share a lot of components with the 996 911 but have better weight distribution. You can just feel the quality of engineering and development in the way the thing handles, stops, gear changes and steers.
If I didnt own the Porsche, I'd probably think the M3 amazing. My plan was to sell the Boxster when i got the BMW, but I'm finding that hard to do.
So, am kind of at a cross roads with the BMW - I've spent quite a bit of £££ on it and am wondering whether to keep going and make further mods, or whether to simply accept it for what it is and not invest further, or even sell it and get something else. Given the cars age, you have to expect that whilst the total value of the car is not that great in relative terms, it will continue to cost money to run as parts wear out. In a way, its unfair to expect a 70k mile, 1998 mass production car with great engine to stand up to a meaningfully lighter 2004 Boxster with 30k miles, factory sports suspension, short shift and engine 'in the right place'.
The next M3 chassis mods I'm considering are:
- Powerflex rear trailing arm bushes + front lower wishbone bushes (dont want to go Powerflex all round as living in London, I want a reasonable level of compliance)
- Z3 or E46 compact steering rack
- Double checking the suspension - I thought that the Weitecs (Weitec is a KW sub-brand and the cost of the coilovers new would be around £800 now - so not absolutely top end stuff, but not budget) were only about 10k miles old, but the rear shocks have just been replaced and the ones that came out were shot
Does anyone have a view on how much difference this will make and whether I could expect meaningful gains by putting in something like Gaz Gold or PSS9 suspension?
I could really do with rear seats, so am wondering whether to keep going with both cars, or sell them both and get something like a 996 C4s or turbo (tho I wouldnt want to use something of that value on track).
I know that a lot of people use e36 M3's as track cars and seem v happy with them - but am not sure what standard can be expected in something that is still pleasant to drive on the road (and not totally stripped out with rock hard suspension).
Can anyone who is EXPERIENCED with Porsches and BMW's give a view?
As a slightly left field option, I have been toying with the idea of something like an R26.R - sure, it costs more than the E36, doesnt have back seats and isnt rear wheel drive (so a bit of a stretch really), but has been totally lauded in the media and given newness, would likely cost buttons to run. If you want to go tracking (certainly something I'm thinking about), the 200kg less weight vs the Evo must be pretty meaningful for wear and tear on components and in reality, there isnt really much to blow on mods - maybe just brake fluid and a re-map and you're done.
Hmmm. Again - interested in any thoughts...
You've got a lot of points and questions going on in that post but, IMO, it comes down to this. You can't get a better handling 4 seater car of the same performance. You can't compare it to the Boxster or 911 because of their great weight advantage amongst other things.
I have run a stripped and full welded cage E36 328 track car (on GAZ suspension) for the last two years and that was a giant killer. I now run a full weight M3 Evo on PSS9 Clubsport on trackdays and it corners faster on high speed bends than the 328 - I know since I have a datalogger. It doesn't have as great prowess on the lower speed bends and transitions, purely because it weighs 300 kgs more. So, in answer to one of your questions, improving the coilovers over the Weitec will certainly see gains in some areas.
My next point would be your geometry. You say it has been done, but to what? I run 3 degrees and 2.5 degrees negative camber front and rear respectively and, along with the optimal ride height and toe (and PSS9s), it is what makes the car handle extremely well.
I have run a stripped and full welded cage E36 328 track car (on GAZ suspension) for the last two years and that was a giant killer. I now run a full weight M3 Evo on PSS9 Clubsport on trackdays and it corners faster on high speed bends than the 328 - I know since I have a datalogger. It doesn't have as great prowess on the lower speed bends and transitions, purely because it weighs 300 kgs more. So, in answer to one of your questions, improving the coilovers over the Weitec will certainly see gains in some areas.
My next point would be your geometry. You say it has been done, but to what? I run 3 degrees and 2.5 degrees negative camber front and rear respectively and, along with the optimal ride height and toe (and PSS9s), it is what makes the car handle extremely well.
Thx - sorry - I know it is quite a busy post!
The geo on the car is stock - so not modded, but its not like a car that's out of alignment.
How much diffce did you find the Gaz / PSS9's made vs whatever you had before and did u notice a difference between the two? (acknowledging they're on different cars)
Could you run that geo on the road without just killing the tyres? Did you have the Geo done at Wheels in Motion? (think I recognise the cars from E36Coupe.com). Guessing that you'll tell me theyre worth a visit...??
The geo on the car is stock - so not modded, but its not like a car that's out of alignment.
How much diffce did you find the Gaz / PSS9's made vs whatever you had before and did u notice a difference between the two? (acknowledging they're on different cars)
Could you run that geo on the road without just killing the tyres? Did you have the Geo done at Wheels in Motion? (think I recognise the cars from E36Coupe.com). Guessing that you'll tell me theyre worth a visit...??
five50 said:
Thx - sorry - I know it is quite a busy post!
The geo on the car is stock - so not modded, but its not like a car that's out of alignment.
How much diffce did you find the Gaz / PSS9's made vs whatever you had before and did u notice a difference between the two? (acknowledging they're on different cars)
Could you run that geo on the road without just killing the tyres? Did you have the Geo done at Wheels in Motion? (think I recognise the cars from E36Coupe.com). Guessing that you'll tell me theyre worth a visit...??
You don't need to go so extreme with your geo but changing from stock will bring huge dividends.The geo on the car is stock - so not modded, but its not like a car that's out of alignment.
How much diffce did you find the Gaz / PSS9's made vs whatever you had before and did u notice a difference between the two? (acknowledging they're on different cars)
Could you run that geo on the road without just killing the tyres? Did you have the Geo done at Wheels in Motion? (think I recognise the cars from E36Coupe.com). Guessing that you'll tell me theyre worth a visit...??
The coilover differences are huge on track. On the road, there is less of a margin as you just can't get anywhere near the level of performance that is on offer.
Finally, yes I got the geo done at WIM - I'm Tommy Lee from E36coupe
WIM are certainly worth a visit, especially if you don't know much about what changes do what. Tony Bones will talk you through it and advise. If you know the geo you want, so long as the place has good equipment and the right minded staff (ones who give a sh*t) then it's all good. I'm in a similar position to the OP - have a Boxster and also a track M3.
I think it comes down to this: the Boxster wins on steering feel, the M3 wins on handling.
Changing the steering rack will help the M3 a lot, as will a decent geo check.
Also, you can change to the 5 speed gearbox for improved shift quality.
I think it comes down to this: the Boxster wins on steering feel, the M3 wins on handling.
Changing the steering rack will help the M3 a lot, as will a decent geo check.
Also, you can change to the 5 speed gearbox for improved shift quality.
If you think the Boxster has steering feel, try a well set up Elise or pref an Exige, or a Caterham! heck even my mx5 on decent supension feels like a fly vs my track m3 in the slower corners & transisions.
M3 is not gunna compete at all, proper geo will make a big diference as do ligher wheels I run bbs Rcs lighter than stock.
Add the z3 rack & poly rather than rubber bsuhes it will feel v diferent but its still a heavy old engine in a heavy car- well ok if stripped then no heavier than the Box, but that doenst have a pig iron lump hanging over the front end!
M3 is not gunna compete at all, proper geo will make a big diference as do ligher wheels I run bbs Rcs lighter than stock.
Add the z3 rack & poly rather than rubber bsuhes it will feel v diferent but its still a heavy old engine in a heavy car- well ok if stripped then no heavier than the Box, but that doenst have a pig iron lump hanging over the front end!
dan101smith said:
Changing the steering rack will help the M3 a lot
just changed mine recently to an E46 rack and miles better now but part of wishes I'd gone for a Z3 rack instead. I'm using my old 944 Turbo's steering as a reference and the EVO is still sadly lacking. Engine weight and position dominates in an EVO until you get involved in carefully prepped corner weighted machines.
five50 said:
Thx - sorry - I know it is quite a busy post!
The geo on the car is stock - so not modded, but its not like a car that's out of alignment.
How much diffce did you find the Gaz / PSS9's made vs whatever you had before and did u notice a difference between the two? (acknowledging they're on different cars)
Could you run that geo on the road without just killing the tyres? Did you have the Geo done at Wheels in Motion? (think I recognise the cars from E36Coupe.com). Guessing that you'll tell me theyre worth a visit...??
Mate, as a man with similarly discerning car taste as yourself ;o)) I think you should either just accept that the M3 is never gonna have Porsche-like traits, steering, balance, brake feel, etc etc, and just enjoy it for what it is, a fun cheap road car, or make it decidedly more track focused and start looking at serious suspension/z3 rack/bushes etc. The geo on the car is stock - so not modded, but its not like a car that's out of alignment.
How much diffce did you find the Gaz / PSS9's made vs whatever you had before and did u notice a difference between the two? (acknowledging they're on different cars)
Could you run that geo on the road without just killing the tyres? Did you have the Geo done at Wheels in Motion? (think I recognise the cars from E36Coupe.com). Guessing that you'll tell me theyre worth a visit...??
At the moment, your car is not really set up for track, and can be improved for road use... so figure out your priorities for it and what role you want it to have in your auto pfolio, and then make a decision.
ps. having said all the above, sell the 550 and get a turbo !!
CRACKIE said:
dan101smith said:
Changing the steering rack will help the M3 a lot
just changed mine recently to an E46 rack and miles better now but part of wishes I'd gone for a Z3 rack instead. I'm using my old 944 Turbo's steering as a reference and the EVO is still sadly lacking. Engine weight and position dominates in an EVO until you get involved in carefully prepped corner weighted machines.Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff