E46 M3 vs 996 911 again!
Discussion
Hi all,
I know this has been covered a number of times before on here, but just wanted to give my opinions on the comparison between the two from long term ownership. I owned a 2000 996 carrera 2 for just over 2 years and changed it for a lower mileage slightly newer(2001) E46 M3. This is probably quite a bit different from most peoples experience with most trading the M3 for the 911. Due to a change of circumstances(new house and first baby on the way the way) the M3 made more sense.
Two very different cars but both great to drive and great fun in their own way. I will breakdown my experiences of the good/bad points in sections below
Power and acceleration:
The 911 definately has it in low down acceleration, the engine feels much torquier low down, it is obviously lighter and the massive rear end grip with all that weight over the rear wheels helps in a big way getting the power down. That said once the M3 is up and running and over 4,500- 5,000 rpm it pulls much harder and would probably be quite a bit quicker through to the redline than the 911. The 911 is much easier to drive quickly without working the gearbox where the m3 really needs to be kept up above 5,000rpm to get the best out of it. The in gear overtaking power of the M3 IMHO leaves the 911 in its wake, but it does always feel like you are at full attack to get the best out of it where the 911 provides a much smoother overtaking burst of speed without dropping down the extra cog on the box.
Ride Quality & Handling: The 911 has it hands down on ride quality it soaks up bumps with ease and while being on the hard side never really jars too much. I have found the M3 to be quite harsh at times and when hitting small bumps at speed on the motorway at times quite bouncy. The porsche ran on 18"s while I have 19"s on the m3 which will obviously affect the ride quality.
The two cars could not handle more differently due to the main weight(engine) being in opposite ends of the car.
The 911 has massive rear end grip particularly in slow corners but requires a different technique from most cars to get it round a corner quickly. It is definately slow in to the corner and quick out, carrying too much speed into a corner will only result in bucket loads of understeer. I found the best way was to carry just enough speed to be at the limits of front end grip and then gently feed in the power to tuck the front end in. The feel of the car was superb with everything light and sharp. The only thing that I never felt confident with was once the car did start to oversteer it never felt that well balanced and never really encouraged you to keep the power down through the corner. I spun it once in the wet when the back end got away from me on a roundabout(no PSM). The back end also felt a little twitching sometimes through fast corners and didnt completely inspire confidence(again not having PSM didnt help this)
The M3 while not having the overall sharpness of the 911 feels more secure and planted in higher speed corners(Do have DSC with this one so that may help with the confidence) and provided you keep the revs high enough into slowers corner gives a bit more smiles per mile than the 911. The porsche definately has more grip and would stick my neck out and say it would be quicker through a series of slower corners. The m3 is great fun to manhandle round a corner with the car feeling much more balanced and having the tendancy to oversteer if anything if a little too much speed is carried into the corner. Oversteer can be held on the throttle much easier and the car feels much more balanced than the 911 at this point and you find yourself grinning ear to ear as the car drifts out of the corner!
Ultimitely the 911 does feel sharper and more like a sports car while the M3 is a little more muted, but for the average driver(including myself) provided more safe fun at and beyond the limit.
Running costs and reliabilty
Not much in it economy wise low 20's with both on superunleaded
Was quite lucky with the 911, ran it for 2 years up to 85,000 miles without anything really major going wrong. Peter at motortune in shotts was fantastic for servicing and the odd repairs that did need done. Just beware if anything does go wrong it will cost! The ECU for the alarm went bad on mine so the remote central locking wouldnt work. Porsche dealer job at £800 to fix for a plug out plug back in job!
I had real concerns latterly with the reliabilty of the 3.2 lump with numerous stories of major engine failure. Not many good second hand units available and pricey if you can find them. A new motor runs somewhere around £10k I think and thats a lot on a car which was only worth £15k when I sold it. Seriously consider a warranty from likes of Hartech if your buying an older one. DIY repairs on the car ar much more complicated than any BMW I have worked on
M3 so far has been superb, uses a bit of oil(they all do that sir) Servicing is reasonably priced at a local specialist and having looked into the price of parts, not quite as prohibitive if anything major does let go. Engines can be rebuilt rather than replaced. If a replacement is needed there are more second hand units available at a lower cost. On reading there has been a few failures on the M lump particularly early on with bearing issues, but not nearly at the same volume as the 911. Easier to DIY work on than the 911 as well. Not really any harder than a standard 3 series
Practicality & Build qaulity
The M3 wins hands down on practicality with a real boot and useable rear seats. Build quality: Not much in it. The 911 probably feels a bit more special and less mainstream with the leather dash, but does look a bit dated now in comparision
Ther you go, my opinion of the two cars. Buy either one and you wont be dissapointed, but be aware they are completley different cars. Dont by the M3 expecting a sports car, but likewise dont convince yourself the 911 is great as an everyday car for the family and the luggage will fit in the boot! Both great fun to drive and own.
I know this has been covered a number of times before on here, but just wanted to give my opinions on the comparison between the two from long term ownership. I owned a 2000 996 carrera 2 for just over 2 years and changed it for a lower mileage slightly newer(2001) E46 M3. This is probably quite a bit different from most peoples experience with most trading the M3 for the 911. Due to a change of circumstances(new house and first baby on the way the way) the M3 made more sense.
Two very different cars but both great to drive and great fun in their own way. I will breakdown my experiences of the good/bad points in sections below
Power and acceleration:
The 911 definately has it in low down acceleration, the engine feels much torquier low down, it is obviously lighter and the massive rear end grip with all that weight over the rear wheels helps in a big way getting the power down. That said once the M3 is up and running and over 4,500- 5,000 rpm it pulls much harder and would probably be quite a bit quicker through to the redline than the 911. The 911 is much easier to drive quickly without working the gearbox where the m3 really needs to be kept up above 5,000rpm to get the best out of it. The in gear overtaking power of the M3 IMHO leaves the 911 in its wake, but it does always feel like you are at full attack to get the best out of it where the 911 provides a much smoother overtaking burst of speed without dropping down the extra cog on the box.
Ride Quality & Handling: The 911 has it hands down on ride quality it soaks up bumps with ease and while being on the hard side never really jars too much. I have found the M3 to be quite harsh at times and when hitting small bumps at speed on the motorway at times quite bouncy. The porsche ran on 18"s while I have 19"s on the m3 which will obviously affect the ride quality.
The two cars could not handle more differently due to the main weight(engine) being in opposite ends of the car.
The 911 has massive rear end grip particularly in slow corners but requires a different technique from most cars to get it round a corner quickly. It is definately slow in to the corner and quick out, carrying too much speed into a corner will only result in bucket loads of understeer. I found the best way was to carry just enough speed to be at the limits of front end grip and then gently feed in the power to tuck the front end in. The feel of the car was superb with everything light and sharp. The only thing that I never felt confident with was once the car did start to oversteer it never felt that well balanced and never really encouraged you to keep the power down through the corner. I spun it once in the wet when the back end got away from me on a roundabout(no PSM). The back end also felt a little twitching sometimes through fast corners and didnt completely inspire confidence(again not having PSM didnt help this)
The M3 while not having the overall sharpness of the 911 feels more secure and planted in higher speed corners(Do have DSC with this one so that may help with the confidence) and provided you keep the revs high enough into slowers corner gives a bit more smiles per mile than the 911. The porsche definately has more grip and would stick my neck out and say it would be quicker through a series of slower corners. The m3 is great fun to manhandle round a corner with the car feeling much more balanced and having the tendancy to oversteer if anything if a little too much speed is carried into the corner. Oversteer can be held on the throttle much easier and the car feels much more balanced than the 911 at this point and you find yourself grinning ear to ear as the car drifts out of the corner!
Ultimitely the 911 does feel sharper and more like a sports car while the M3 is a little more muted, but for the average driver(including myself) provided more safe fun at and beyond the limit.
Running costs and reliabilty
Not much in it economy wise low 20's with both on superunleaded
Was quite lucky with the 911, ran it for 2 years up to 85,000 miles without anything really major going wrong. Peter at motortune in shotts was fantastic for servicing and the odd repairs that did need done. Just beware if anything does go wrong it will cost! The ECU for the alarm went bad on mine so the remote central locking wouldnt work. Porsche dealer job at £800 to fix for a plug out plug back in job!
I had real concerns latterly with the reliabilty of the 3.2 lump with numerous stories of major engine failure. Not many good second hand units available and pricey if you can find them. A new motor runs somewhere around £10k I think and thats a lot on a car which was only worth £15k when I sold it. Seriously consider a warranty from likes of Hartech if your buying an older one. DIY repairs on the car ar much more complicated than any BMW I have worked on
M3 so far has been superb, uses a bit of oil(they all do that sir) Servicing is reasonably priced at a local specialist and having looked into the price of parts, not quite as prohibitive if anything major does let go. Engines can be rebuilt rather than replaced. If a replacement is needed there are more second hand units available at a lower cost. On reading there has been a few failures on the M lump particularly early on with bearing issues, but not nearly at the same volume as the 911. Easier to DIY work on than the 911 as well. Not really any harder than a standard 3 series
Practicality & Build qaulity
The M3 wins hands down on practicality with a real boot and useable rear seats. Build quality: Not much in it. The 911 probably feels a bit more special and less mainstream with the leather dash, but does look a bit dated now in comparision
Ther you go, my opinion of the two cars. Buy either one and you wont be dissapointed, but be aware they are completley different cars. Dont by the M3 expecting a sports car, but likewise dont convince yourself the 911 is great as an everyday car for the family and the luggage will fit in the boot! Both great fun to drive and own.
I have had an E46 M3, 2003 SMG coupe, but never a 996. I have had 2 997s (one 3.6 one 3.8) and I must say the Porsche was miles better, but it should be, it was over double the price of the BMW.
The M3 was an excellent car, and the E46 is now awesome value for money. Clearly there are some dogs around, but you can find some lovely examples. In 2008 I paid £16k for a well looked after silver/red car, I got £14k back about 10 months later.
This was an excellent review, and it would be a really hard choice between a 996 Carrera and E46 M3, it would come down to circumstances really - if I only needed 2 seats, Id go Porsche though I reckon.
The M3 was an excellent car, and the E46 is now awesome value for money. Clearly there are some dogs around, but you can find some lovely examples. In 2008 I paid £16k for a well looked after silver/red car, I got £14k back about 10 months later.
This was an excellent review, and it would be a really hard choice between a 996 Carrera and E46 M3, it would come down to circumstances really - if I only needed 2 seats, Id go Porsche though I reckon.
E39 M5 is a great car. had an old 528i runabout a couple of years ago as well as the 996 and it drove and handled like a car half its size. I have driven a couple of M5's and the V8 it superb and so much quicker than it feels. If it wasnt for the fuel economy I would have definatley considered one. My friend has one and its makes my wifes 4.4 X5 look frugal!
997 is superb and a definate step on from the 996, but in a completely differnet price band from an e46 M3. Never driven the new M3, but price wise would be a better comparison
May consider a 996 TT in the future when the little one is a bit bigger and I have a bit more spare cash. I really enjoyed the porsche, and the TT lump is bulletproof and repairable in comparison to the mass produced 996 3.2 and 3.4 carrera.
Meantime im delighted with the M3 and save for some eibach springs sitting in the garage to be fitted will enjoy it as is for the meantime(must stop looking at Supercharger conversions, but 460hp for not too much money is hard to resist!)
997 is superb and a definate step on from the 996, but in a completely differnet price band from an e46 M3. Never driven the new M3, but price wise would be a better comparison
May consider a 996 TT in the future when the little one is a bit bigger and I have a bit more spare cash. I really enjoyed the porsche, and the TT lump is bulletproof and repairable in comparison to the mass produced 996 3.2 and 3.4 carrera.
Meantime im delighted with the M3 and save for some eibach springs sitting in the garage to be fitted will enjoy it as is for the meantime(must stop looking at Supercharger conversions, but 460hp for not too much money is hard to resist!)
carlgrz said:
I idly considered an early 996 before plumping for the much cheaper and more practical E39 M5. I just couldn't ever get over how dull the 996 looks. Surely the most blandly styled 911 to date?
That is one of the reasons that an early 996 doesn't really interest me in terms of considering it for a replacement for my E46 ..... That, and the horror stories regarding the 3.4 litre engine problems.
I continue to wrestle with my window shopping mouse hand, and then my unaccomodating bank balance, to see myself into a 911 in the near future. A 996 Turbo would be awesome, however I'd be equally happy with the more compact and modest performance of a 993 Carrera 2.
Really great review from the OP, and a fascinating read from someone with first hand experience of ownership for once, rather than the more frequent statos that regurgitate magazine data, or bless us with their sage wisdom based on a 10 minute test drive around the block.
normal 997 911s are boring (Turbo S and GT series excepted).
E46 M3 is amazing value for money and would definitely be my choice over any 996 (Turbo and GT excepted).
996 material quality is poor but it is a robust machine.
New 997s pi$$ oil (RMS) continually... a fundamental design flaw (split cases around a circular ring) that cannot be remedied easily.
The E39 M5 is a remarkable car: I think in time good examples will start to appreciate from where they are today. No other car delivers so much (quality/performance/handling/practicality) for so little.
The 996 will be forgotten in time as the ugliest 911 of all.
E46 M3 is amazing value for money and would definitely be my choice over any 996 (Turbo and GT excepted).
996 material quality is poor but it is a robust machine.
New 997s pi$$ oil (RMS) continually... a fundamental design flaw (split cases around a circular ring) that cannot be remedied easily.
The E39 M5 is a remarkable car: I think in time good examples will start to appreciate from where they are today. No other car delivers so much (quality/performance/handling/practicality) for so little.
The 996 will be forgotten in time as the ugliest 911 of all.
spareparts said:
The 996 will be forgotten in time as the ugliest 911 of all.
The 996 is to 911s, as the Mk3 & 4 Golf GTi is to German hot hatches - a recognisable low point.
or
The 996 is to 911s, as the E36 M3 is becoming to BMW M Cars - the poor relation in a devistatingly strong family, and therefore an awesomely capable alternative to products from the rest of the marketplace ......
A high mileage 996 in an undesirable colour combo (with an auto admitedly) isn't far off falling through the £10k barrier. Perfectly usable E36 M3s continue to change hands for £4k or there and there abouts. For the buyer that isn't obsessed with mileage and digits on the acrylic rectangles nailed to the bumpers, those are tantilising options compared to a Clio 200 Cup or bread van Civic Type-R, if the bills can be managed.
mat205125 said:
The 996 is to 911s, as the E36 M3 is becoming to BMW M Cars - the poor relation in a devistatingly strong family, and therefore an awesomely capable alternative to products from the rest of the marketplace ......
A high mileage 996 in an undesirable colour combo (with an auto admitedly) isn't far off falling through the £10k barrier. Perfectly usable E36 M3s continue to change hands for £4k or there and there abouts. For the buyer that isn't obsessed with mileage and digits on the acrylic rectangles nailed to the bumpers, those are tantilising options compared to a Clio 200 Cup or bread van Civic Type-R, if the bills can be managed.
True. 996s are a performance bargain if well looked after... the problem will be a lot of tatty cars that will not be maintained properly. Forget Carrera Cup... there could be a great club race series for all 996 cars... stripped out, etc. Could also include 986 Boxsters too perhaps...A high mileage 996 in an undesirable colour combo (with an auto admitedly) isn't far off falling through the £10k barrier. Perfectly usable E36 M3s continue to change hands for £4k or there and there abouts. For the buyer that isn't obsessed with mileage and digits on the acrylic rectangles nailed to the bumpers, those are tantilising options compared to a Clio 200 Cup or bread van Civic Type-R, if the bills can be managed.
I wouldnt be too hard on the poor old 996, back in 1997 when it was launched it really was a good car. A lot of people tend to forget the design is now 13 years old and it just hasn't aged as well as the likes of the 993. From my experience a really capable car and definately quicker and much more refined than the 993(some would argue more refined isnt a good thing) It really is the unreliability of the lump which is the major issue. Styling and build quality on the 996 GT3 and 911 turbo are the same(save the wider arches and bodykit) as the standard carrera and they are both brilliant cars. Go into buying one with your eyes open to the problems, negotiate a good deal and get a warranty and you wont be dissapointed. I never regretted owning my car and would love to buy a 996 turbo once the funds allow. A newer lower mileage e46 M3 is a safer bet in my book however. Or alternatively buy a good early E46 m3 and supercharge it for an extra £8k and you have something which will hang on to a 911 turbo for not much more than a similar year carrera. you can then still fit the shopping and kids in as well!
To Answer luke's question: Baby is due in mid January, so cant answer the three door issue yet. The wife has an X5 which we will use most of the time for the little one and the M3 less regularly. The proper back seats and decent size boot of the m3 will definately come in useful for all the gear you need to cart about though. I know a girl who had a boxster before their first child and she was convinced she could practically keep using it as the main car for the little one. Went to the expense of buying specialist prams and car seats which would fit the porsche. A year down the line She now has a new 335i 4 door!
spareparts said:
normal 997 911s are boring (Turbo S and GT series excepted).
Really? Sounds like an informed observation.spareparts said:
New 997s pi$$ oil (RMS) continually... a fundamental design flaw (split cases around a circular ring) that cannot be remedied easily.
Ditto. My 997 hasn't given up a drop of oil from the RMS (yet) in five and a half years of ownership.A good post from the OP. I have been running an E90 M3 saloon alongside my 997 for the past eighteen months. Interesting how I would echo many of his observations between my 997 and M3.
997 said:
I have been running an E90 M3 saloon alongside my 997 for the past eighteen months. Interesting how I would echo many of his observations between my 997 and M3.
Are you running them as a his and hers, or is the Porsche a something for the weekend?Does the 911 offer something significantly more than the M3 to warrant having both to enjoy those special drives?
spareparts said:
normal 997 911s are boring (Turbo S and GT series excepted).
Really? Sounds like an informed observation.
Certainly wouldnt call a 997 carrera S boring. Have driven a couple of them one being my friends long termer and I thought it was a great drivers car and IMHO lookes stunning. Shame again about the engine troubles on the newer 3.6 lumps as well
spareparts said:
New 997s pi$$ oil (RMS) continually... a fundamental design flaw (split cases around a circular ring) that cannot be remedied easily.
As per 996. My 2000 plate had 85,000 on the clock and still on original RMS. It never used a drop of oil between services and a lot less than my m3 currently uses. The indy who looked after my car (ex porsche tech) said the RMS issues were greatly exagerated although he also said there were alot of them that seeped oil so used a litre or so between services, but seldom saw one that pissed it out
normal 997 911s are boring (Turbo S and GT series excepted).
Really? Sounds like an informed observation.
Certainly wouldnt call a 997 carrera S boring. Have driven a couple of them one being my friends long termer and I thought it was a great drivers car and IMHO lookes stunning. Shame again about the engine troubles on the newer 3.6 lumps as well
spareparts said:
New 997s pi$$ oil (RMS) continually... a fundamental design flaw (split cases around a circular ring) that cannot be remedied easily.
As per 996. My 2000 plate had 85,000 on the clock and still on original RMS. It never used a drop of oil between services and a lot less than my m3 currently uses. The indy who looked after my car (ex porsche tech) said the RMS issues were greatly exagerated although he also said there were alot of them that seeped oil so used a litre or so between services, but seldom saw one that pissed it out
mat205125 said:
997 said:
I have been running an E90 M3 saloon alongside my 997 for the past eighteen months. Interesting how I would echo many of his observations between my 997 and M3.
Are you running them as a his and hers, or is the Porsche a something for the weekend?Does the 911 offer something significantly more than the M3 to warrant having both to enjoy those special drives?
Always wanted an M3 but somehow it never worked out. The M3 was a bit of an opportunistic buy because it was such a good deal, downsizing car size justified by my eldest now driving himself and rarely with the family.
There is a lot of overlap between the two cars - although it is M3 saloon vs 997s cab - if it were coupe vs coupe it would be very difficult to justify both.
I have both cars specced in pretty similar way, manual on both, PASM and EDC....
If it wasn't for the fact that the 997 is a cab, I would say that the 997 does not offer significantly more. The two cars are noticeably different though - on twisty roads the 997 is much more fun and it is then that the sports car character shines through compared to the M3.
I see the 997 as a possible keeper. I always thought that the M3 would be a short term ownership proposition to scratch the itch that had always been there. But I think it is such an impressive car though, I can see myself keeping it for quite a while yet.
Good summary OP, and nice to see a comparison based on real experience rather than recycled EVO quotes/Clarksonisms/blind prejudice.
For my own part, I deliberated long and hard over the two choices (when I had a 130i) before eventually plumping for a Z4 M Coupe which I didn't really gel with or subsequently keep very long.
I'm now driving a 993 Carrera which, in my opinion, provides much more driving pleasure and sense of occasion than the 996 or M3 despite it not being as fast as either.
A good 993 costs a fair bit more than a good 996/M3 however, and there's no doubt in my mind that the 996 and M3 are two of the best sub-£20k all-round usable performance cars available today.
For my own part, I deliberated long and hard over the two choices (when I had a 130i) before eventually plumping for a Z4 M Coupe which I didn't really gel with or subsequently keep very long.
I'm now driving a 993 Carrera which, in my opinion, provides much more driving pleasure and sense of occasion than the 996 or M3 despite it not being as fast as either.
A good 993 costs a fair bit more than a good 996/M3 however, and there's no doubt in my mind that the 996 and M3 are two of the best sub-£20k all-round usable performance cars available today.
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