E36 M3 EVO VANOS - Not another one!
Discussion
Well may be not.
I've spent a good few hours searching through this forum and reading the numerous VANOS posts and I've come away uncertain; hence this post.
As a quick background I have (almost) decided to take the plunge and pick up an M3 EVO as a cheap but powerful rear wheel drive car on which to cut my teeth. This has involved the painful process of ruling out E46 M3s, Porsche Boxters, slightly leggy Porsche 911s and, most painful of all, the E39 M5 (hence the "almost").
I've now been to see two cars, both with excellent histories and both described as one or all of "immaculate", "pristine" or "showroom". (Now who lies in a used car ad?!). To be fair, both have been very impressive given their near 13 years in age and c.110k mileage.
Both also have VANOS documentation proving that it's been serviced/replaced etc and the garages have said the VANOS is perfect (neither are BMW specialists). However, both cars have made a very strange noise under acceleration.
I have tried listening to the various VANOS noise videos on YouTube, but cannot pick out the sound I am hearing.
In the first car the noise was louder, and occurred during any acceleration in any gear and at any speed (so not just wide open throttle - even a gentle meander from 30 - 40 in traffic), the second car made it only on wide open throttle, maybe in the mid range (but didn't always make it) and was quieter anyway.
I shall now try to describe the noise: bear with me here...
The noise appears to be coming from the dashboard; I would describe it as almost directly behind the instrument binnacle, it does not appear to be coming from the engine bay (this is not to say it isn't coming from the engine bay).
It is maybe like a scratching, like a hamster scratching rapidly away behind the plastic. It's also not dissimilar to the noise made by a manual coffee grinder(!), or sounds a bit like loud small gears - if you could imagine you had an old school milometer it's the sound I imagine that might make if it was whizzing round at a massive speed and the gears running it were struggling to keep up.
If you've finished laughing the other thing it reminded me of was marbles, but not necessarily in a tin, more like a handful of them being coaxed around.
It's the marbles similarity that's made me think VANOS from reading the posts. However, in the second car at idle the engine is as smooth as a baby's posterior (from freezing cold) and I revved it while my head was in the engine bay (albeit not WOT) and again as smooth as a dream. Also no noises when engine braking from 4,500 to 2,500 rpm. No clattery noises at all. No ticking noises.
Hopefully you can see my confusion, but as the noise has been identical on both cars (in nature if not volume etc) I wondered if it is a common noise and whether anyone might be able to say, "definitely sounds like VANOS" or alternatively "get a mechanic to dismantle the dashboard and remove the rodent barista".
Any help/comments/mud-slinging welcome.
Thanks guys,
Adrian.
I've spent a good few hours searching through this forum and reading the numerous VANOS posts and I've come away uncertain; hence this post.
As a quick background I have (almost) decided to take the plunge and pick up an M3 EVO as a cheap but powerful rear wheel drive car on which to cut my teeth. This has involved the painful process of ruling out E46 M3s, Porsche Boxters, slightly leggy Porsche 911s and, most painful of all, the E39 M5 (hence the "almost").
I've now been to see two cars, both with excellent histories and both described as one or all of "immaculate", "pristine" or "showroom". (Now who lies in a used car ad?!). To be fair, both have been very impressive given their near 13 years in age and c.110k mileage.
Both also have VANOS documentation proving that it's been serviced/replaced etc and the garages have said the VANOS is perfect (neither are BMW specialists). However, both cars have made a very strange noise under acceleration.
I have tried listening to the various VANOS noise videos on YouTube, but cannot pick out the sound I am hearing.
In the first car the noise was louder, and occurred during any acceleration in any gear and at any speed (so not just wide open throttle - even a gentle meander from 30 - 40 in traffic), the second car made it only on wide open throttle, maybe in the mid range (but didn't always make it) and was quieter anyway.
I shall now try to describe the noise: bear with me here...
The noise appears to be coming from the dashboard; I would describe it as almost directly behind the instrument binnacle, it does not appear to be coming from the engine bay (this is not to say it isn't coming from the engine bay).
It is maybe like a scratching, like a hamster scratching rapidly away behind the plastic. It's also not dissimilar to the noise made by a manual coffee grinder(!), or sounds a bit like loud small gears - if you could imagine you had an old school milometer it's the sound I imagine that might make if it was whizzing round at a massive speed and the gears running it were struggling to keep up.
If you've finished laughing the other thing it reminded me of was marbles, but not necessarily in a tin, more like a handful of them being coaxed around.
It's the marbles similarity that's made me think VANOS from reading the posts. However, in the second car at idle the engine is as smooth as a baby's posterior (from freezing cold) and I revved it while my head was in the engine bay (albeit not WOT) and again as smooth as a dream. Also no noises when engine braking from 4,500 to 2,500 rpm. No clattery noises at all. No ticking noises.
Hopefully you can see my confusion, but as the noise has been identical on both cars (in nature if not volume etc) I wondered if it is a common noise and whether anyone might be able to say, "definitely sounds like VANOS" or alternatively "get a mechanic to dismantle the dashboard and remove the rodent barista".
Any help/comments/mud-slinging welcome.
Thanks guys,
Adrian.
The noise you are hearing is almost certainly the injectors and not the VANOS gears which sit at the front of the head. Unless wear is extreme, you will not hear the VANOS in the car or under load.
The test, as I assume you are aware, is to listen to the car idle, rev to 2500rpm and let the revs fall again. If you hear an overly loud 'marbles in a tin can' noise, then that is the first sign that the VANOS is perhaps a little worn, but not necessarily failed. The only indicator to VANOS failure is a lumpy idle (which could also be many other things) and/or reduced performance throughout the rev range.
Like most complicated things that people don't understand, VANOS failure is massively over-hyped and not particularly common.
The test, as I assume you are aware, is to listen to the car idle, rev to 2500rpm and let the revs fall again. If you hear an overly loud 'marbles in a tin can' noise, then that is the first sign that the VANOS is perhaps a little worn, but not necessarily failed. The only indicator to VANOS failure is a lumpy idle (which could also be many other things) and/or reduced performance throughout the rev range.
Like most complicated things that people don't understand, VANOS failure is massively over-hyped and not particularly common.
I have a resonance coming from the dash area. For my car, it appears at around 3700 rpm. I researched the bmwowner forum and found this: http://www.bmwowner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&am...
Interestingly, there's even two articles in the BMW TIS system
Interestingly, there's even two articles in the BMW TIS system
I've been doing a little reading in the double VANOS issues and have come to a couple of conclusions.
The only "thing" for me would be the worry that it would fail suddenly when I was on an important journey...
With that in mind I would probably go for a non-Evo (especially given the fact that the 3.0 seems often to be over the 286bhp and the 3.2 below the 321bhp apparently), although I am not sure VANOS is the problem it is oven thought to be, given the 2nd and 3rd of my points above.
I have just been offered a very nice Evo convertible by a colleague which I am considering. If I was looking off my own bat I would be looking at a 328i or a 3.0 (hard top), but beggars can't be choosers! He has no idea what VANOS is so I am assuming it's not failed!!
- some VANOS fail with no warning at all
- some VANOS make a funny noise for 10s of 1000s of miles with no ill effects
- many of the VANOS units replaced were done under warranty because of a noise, not because they actually failed/were going to fail.
- If your VANOS fails you are looking at £500 to replace with a refurbed unity from Dr.VANOS rather than £2k+ for a new one from BMW.
The only "thing" for me would be the worry that it would fail suddenly when I was on an important journey...
With that in mind I would probably go for a non-Evo (especially given the fact that the 3.0 seems often to be over the 286bhp and the 3.2 below the 321bhp apparently), although I am not sure VANOS is the problem it is oven thought to be, given the 2nd and 3rd of my points above.
I have just been offered a very nice Evo convertible by a colleague which I am considering. If I was looking off my own bat I would be looking at a 328i or a 3.0 (hard top), but beggars can't be choosers! He has no idea what VANOS is so I am assuming it's not failed!!
NiceCupOfTea said:
I've been doing a little reading in the double VANOS issues and have come to a couple of conclusions.
The only "thing" for me would be the worry that it would fail suddenly when I was on an important journey...
With that in mind I would probably go for a non-Evo (especially given the fact that the 3.0 seems often to be over the 286bhp and the 3.2 below the 321bhp apparently), although I am not sure VANOS is the problem it is oven thought to be, given the 2nd and 3rd of my points above.
I have just been offered a very nice Evo convertible by a colleague which I am considering. If I was looking off my own bat I would be looking at a 328i or a 3.0 (hard top), but beggars can't be choosers! He has no idea what VANOS is so I am assuming it's not failed!!
It really doesn't matter. You can drive for as long as you want with a failed Vanos. It gives the effect of dropping from 310 to 270bhp, and the idle gets a bit lumpy, but it's not a hard shoulder job.- some VANOS fail with no warning at all
- some VANOS make a funny noise for 10s of 1000s of miles with no ill effects
- many of the VANOS units replaced were done under warranty because of a noise, not because they actually failed/were going to fail.
- If your VANOS fails you are looking at £500 to replace with a refurbed unity from Dr.VANOS rather than £2k+ for a new one from BMW.
The only "thing" for me would be the worry that it would fail suddenly when I was on an important journey...
With that in mind I would probably go for a non-Evo (especially given the fact that the 3.0 seems often to be over the 286bhp and the 3.2 below the 321bhp apparently), although I am not sure VANOS is the problem it is oven thought to be, given the 2nd and 3rd of my points above.
I have just been offered a very nice Evo convertible by a colleague which I am considering. If I was looking off my own bat I would be looking at a 328i or a 3.0 (hard top), but beggars can't be choosers! He has no idea what VANOS is so I am assuming it's not failed!!
There is no good reason to buy a 3.0 over a 3.2, at all, ever. That £500 to replace the Vanos (should you ever need to) will be made up buy the better MPG from having a 6th gear.
To the OP, if you're really worried get it to a specialist for a Vanos check on the diagnostic machine. That'll tell you if you've got sticking solenoids or not.
D7 said:
That sounds very similar to something I've noticed over the last few days, only on 3/4 throttle or above.
Perhaps in agreement with SWTMERCE's comment, the noise seems to have started since I adjusted the tension on my throttle cable last week.
SWTMERCE, how did you access the BMW TIS system? Are you in the trade?
No I'm not in the trade. You can buy CD copies off ebay.Perhaps in agreement with SWTMERCE's comment, the noise seems to have started since I adjusted the tension on my throttle cable last week.
SWTMERCE, how did you access the BMW TIS system? Are you in the trade?
aph202 said:
That's great, thanks. Very good to hear it doesn't sound like VANOS.
I'm assuming if it is injectors that while not cheap the issue would be less expensive to resolve than VANOS refurb/replace?
Touch wood, but it sounds like this one might be a goer - if not gone already!
Adrian.
Sorry, I should have explained better: the injector noise is completely normal.I'm assuming if it is injectors that while not cheap the issue would be less expensive to resolve than VANOS refurb/replace?
Touch wood, but it sounds like this one might be a goer - if not gone already!
Adrian.
Vanos noise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjYkx0gA9xA
This is a 3.0 M3 by the looks of things, but the noise is the same.
Incidentally, my M3 has the 'hamster' noise seemingly coming from the tacho'.
This is a 3.0 M3 by the looks of things, but the noise is the same.
Incidentally, my M3 has the 'hamster' noise seemingly coming from the tacho'.
I had a similar sound that had got slowly worse over the last year. I was convinced it was coming from behind the dash. A really hard noise to describe. It was really loud under hard acceleration in low gears. Sounded like an induction/liquid under pressure running through a pipe type sort of noise to me??
Anyway... my local indie took a listen and said he was sure it was an exhaust/manifold issue. I booked it in and he had a good check and poke about. Basically he pushed some heatshields and the like around and got rid of it. I can occassionally still hear it, but it is very quiet now.
Anyway... my local indie took a listen and said he was sure it was an exhaust/manifold issue. I booked it in and he had a good check and poke about. Basically he pushed some heatshields and the like around and got rid of it. I can occassionally still hear it, but it is very quiet now.
Adrian,
swtmerce is spot on with that noise you are hearing from behind the dash. I had this on my first evo as well several years ago. The link to bmwowner above has all the details and further links in their with everything other owners have done to eliminate this noise. Even if it is left it won't/isn't doing any damage and a lot of evo's have this noise.
good luck!
swtmerce is spot on with that noise you are hearing from behind the dash. I had this on my first evo as well several years ago. The link to bmwowner above has all the details and further links in their with everything other owners have done to eliminate this noise. Even if it is left it won't/isn't doing any damage and a lot of evo's have this noise.
good luck!
khushy said:
the vanos noise is like a "whirring - loose bearing'd - rotating wheel" type of noise and can only be heard at idle or just when moving up from idle.
khushy
Hmmm, I get this occasionally when the engine is cold on my 328i - a whirring noise (sounds like a cambelt tensioner, but I don;t have a cambelt so can;t be that) which dissappears when warm. Is this my VANOS about to play silly buggers or something more benign?khushy
Hia all
I've just picked up an immac 1978 79K E36 M3 having moved up from 6 years with a 328i and wanting a daily ride with a difference. The weekend car is a Tuscan 4.0 and the comments are spot on around the forum, there is no contest when flooring the loud pedal. 330bhp per ton against 220 on the evo says it all.
Anyway, the first thing I noticed (that was disconcerting) is a noise from the dash quite accurately described as a hamster scratching. Having covered almost a thousand miles in the first week of ownership I quickly came to the assumption that the noise was as insignificant as it sounded!!
After a week of feeling sure that it was a guage/dials issue, I set about sorting it. , Clue 1 - It only happens when driving, not at standstill. Clue 2 - it got louder as the accelerator is depressed, but not on the over-run, clue 3 - raising the steering wheel made the noise go away.
The answer fairly quickly turned out to be that the steering shaft rises under the bonnet, as the wheel is lowered in the car. At full down adjustment, the UV joint on the shaft almost catches(1mm clearance) the exhaust aluminium shielding.
On acceleration, the engine moves very slightly on the mounts and the shield touches the shaft hence the engine noise is transmitted into the steering shaft and back into the cabin.
The answer is simple. Drop the steering wheel in the car, and from under the bonnet (adjacent to the brake sero), insert a wide bladed screwdriver between the aluminium shield and the uv joint. By twisting gently the gap is opened just enough to give enough clearance and hey presto, the noise is gone.
I hope that this is helpful, it certainly looks as though it is a common issue and is about the 3.2 lump being wider than the other engines.
Martin
I've just picked up an immac 1978 79K E36 M3 having moved up from 6 years with a 328i and wanting a daily ride with a difference. The weekend car is a Tuscan 4.0 and the comments are spot on around the forum, there is no contest when flooring the loud pedal. 330bhp per ton against 220 on the evo says it all.
Anyway, the first thing I noticed (that was disconcerting) is a noise from the dash quite accurately described as a hamster scratching. Having covered almost a thousand miles in the first week of ownership I quickly came to the assumption that the noise was as insignificant as it sounded!!
After a week of feeling sure that it was a guage/dials issue, I set about sorting it. , Clue 1 - It only happens when driving, not at standstill. Clue 2 - it got louder as the accelerator is depressed, but not on the over-run, clue 3 - raising the steering wheel made the noise go away.
The answer fairly quickly turned out to be that the steering shaft rises under the bonnet, as the wheel is lowered in the car. At full down adjustment, the UV joint on the shaft almost catches(1mm clearance) the exhaust aluminium shielding.
On acceleration, the engine moves very slightly on the mounts and the shield touches the shaft hence the engine noise is transmitted into the steering shaft and back into the cabin.
The answer is simple. Drop the steering wheel in the car, and from under the bonnet (adjacent to the brake sero), insert a wide bladed screwdriver between the aluminium shield and the uv joint. By twisting gently the gap is opened just enough to give enough clearance and hey presto, the noise is gone.
I hope that this is helpful, it certainly looks as though it is a common issue and is about the 3.2 lump being wider than the other engines.
Martin
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