E60 / 61 M5 high speed brake vibration.
Discussion
Well, i knew it wouldnt take long before an issue cropped up:
Having had the car a month now and having put 500 miles on it since its new pads i took her out for some spirited driving. When i say spirited driving i mean 1 or 2 straight line sprints down my local private road (no corners). The car has performed perfectly since i picked her up, braking at normal road speed has been nothing other than normal. However;
Last night on the first run (in M mode, M Dynamic on, S5 shifts, Suspension on sport) i hit 100mph and applied the foot brake. What i got was quite a serious vibration through the steering wheel. Not expecting that i took my foot off the brake (now doing 80) and reapplied it to be sure i wasnt imagining it. It vibrated again, but less aggresively, and then when below 70 it stopped vibrating completely. I then took it back round for a second run.
I decided to take it to 115mph this time and instead of applying the brakes in stages i would apply it at a constant medium wieght until the car came down to 40mph. So, at the stated speed i put my foot on the brake. Again the vibration returned but i didnt lift off. As soon as it dropped to 70 it just stopped vibrating.
I then drove around the local loop of roundabouts and slow roads to see if there was anything amiss at all at low speed. With my left foot lightly on the brake and my right holding the speed at 30 i could feel no vibration or movment of the pedal. Corner braking and braking to a stop were all fine with just the normal faint grind that you get from having drilled discs. From there i headed back home.
Now, the car had new discs all round not that long ago, maybe 3k or so. Its not been pushed hard and there is no sign of any excess wear or much of a lip. When i got the new pads fitted i followed the bedding in procedure and didnt do any high speed or hard driving until last night when i was sure they were well bedded (which i wouldnt say was anywhere near hard for this type of car). According to the I Drive i have 8k left on the pads and the fluid is due next march so its not like im late for anything.
Anyone got any ideas? I do have an insured bmw warranty so if the discs are warped (possibilty?) is this something that will be covered? Any chance it could be an ABS issue as it only vibrates above 70?
Eddie
Having had the car a month now and having put 500 miles on it since its new pads i took her out for some spirited driving. When i say spirited driving i mean 1 or 2 straight line sprints down my local private road (no corners). The car has performed perfectly since i picked her up, braking at normal road speed has been nothing other than normal. However;
Last night on the first run (in M mode, M Dynamic on, S5 shifts, Suspension on sport) i hit 100mph and applied the foot brake. What i got was quite a serious vibration through the steering wheel. Not expecting that i took my foot off the brake (now doing 80) and reapplied it to be sure i wasnt imagining it. It vibrated again, but less aggresively, and then when below 70 it stopped vibrating completely. I then took it back round for a second run.
I decided to take it to 115mph this time and instead of applying the brakes in stages i would apply it at a constant medium wieght until the car came down to 40mph. So, at the stated speed i put my foot on the brake. Again the vibration returned but i didnt lift off. As soon as it dropped to 70 it just stopped vibrating.
I then drove around the local loop of roundabouts and slow roads to see if there was anything amiss at all at low speed. With my left foot lightly on the brake and my right holding the speed at 30 i could feel no vibration or movment of the pedal. Corner braking and braking to a stop were all fine with just the normal faint grind that you get from having drilled discs. From there i headed back home.
Now, the car had new discs all round not that long ago, maybe 3k or so. Its not been pushed hard and there is no sign of any excess wear or much of a lip. When i got the new pads fitted i followed the bedding in procedure and didnt do any high speed or hard driving until last night when i was sure they were well bedded (which i wouldnt say was anywhere near hard for this type of car). According to the I Drive i have 8k left on the pads and the fluid is due next march so its not like im late for anything.
Anyone got any ideas? I do have an insured bmw warranty so if the discs are warped (possibilty?) is this something that will be covered? Any chance it could be an ABS issue as it only vibrates above 70?
Eddie
Squire,
It's one of the more documented weaknesses; fact is, if you lean on them, they will wilt, sooner or later.
I'd seriously look at an aftermarket upgrade path, perhaps via the bods at Thorney Motorsport who have cured many an (e39) M5 of this ailment.
My e63 is ok most of the time and tbh has done more than a few, violent 180-190 anchor jobs and at 28k is still on only its 2nd (original BMW) set but I know if hooning au 911 it's a recipe for retardant disappointment.
It's one of the more documented weaknesses; fact is, if you lean on them, they will wilt, sooner or later.
I'd seriously look at an aftermarket upgrade path, perhaps via the bods at Thorney Motorsport who have cured many an (e39) M5 of this ailment.
My e63 is ok most of the time and tbh has done more than a few, violent 180-190 anchor jobs and at 28k is still on only its 2nd (original BMW) set but I know if hooning au 911 it's a recipe for retardant disappointment.
derestrictor said:
Squire,
It's one of the more documented weaknesses; fact is, if you lean on them, they will wilt, sooner or later.
I'd seriously look at an aftermarket upgrade path, perhaps via the bods at Thorney Motorsport who have cured many an (e39) M5 of this ailment.
My e63 is ok most of the time and tbh has done more than a few, violent 180-190 anchor jobs and at 28k is still on only its 2nd (original BMW) set but I know if hooning au 911 it's a recipe for retardant disappointment.
You have read the OP havnt you? Its an E61 M5 and the pads and discs are new. They havnt been 'leant on' in any way. Your response was a bit E39, worn pads and disce orientated. lol It's one of the more documented weaknesses; fact is, if you lean on them, they will wilt, sooner or later.
I'd seriously look at an aftermarket upgrade path, perhaps via the bods at Thorney Motorsport who have cured many an (e39) M5 of this ailment.
My e63 is ok most of the time and tbh has done more than a few, violent 180-190 anchor jobs and at 28k is still on only its 2nd (original BMW) set but I know if hooning au 911 it's a recipe for retardant disappointment.
m33ufo said:
ecain63 said:
According to the I Drive i have 8k left on the pads
Doesn't sound like much considering they've just been replaced?My fronts are showing (from memory), 6K miles and they were replaced 10K miles ago. I'll double check lunch time.
Hi there!
Something is wrong with the brakes.....this is not normal at all. Methinks the discs are warped.
The BMW brakes are more than up to the job for public roads or for the occasional sympathetic track session....unless you're unusually heavy on them.
One thing that can cause problems is keeping the foot on the brake when stopped after spirited driving.....hot spots quickly formm on the discs, leading to the dreaded juddering. My view is that a lot of problems with performance discs arise this way.....you'd be amazed at the number of people who don't know this.....I've seen cars come straight off track and park up with the brakes on for periods....incredible!!
As for the i-drive indicators, I'm slighlty bothered......my pads still have loads of life left in them apparently (10K at front, 13K at rear).....don't seem to be wearing as fast as I'd expect, although I'm not a brake driver to be fair.....BMW do say however that all is well.
I'll be interested to know the outcome Eddie.
Jazzer
Something is wrong with the brakes.....this is not normal at all. Methinks the discs are warped.
The BMW brakes are more than up to the job for public roads or for the occasional sympathetic track session....unless you're unusually heavy on them.
One thing that can cause problems is keeping the foot on the brake when stopped after spirited driving.....hot spots quickly formm on the discs, leading to the dreaded juddering. My view is that a lot of problems with performance discs arise this way.....you'd be amazed at the number of people who don't know this.....I've seen cars come straight off track and park up with the brakes on for periods....incredible!!
As for the i-drive indicators, I'm slighlty bothered......my pads still have loads of life left in them apparently (10K at front, 13K at rear).....don't seem to be wearing as fast as I'd expect, although I'm not a brake driver to be fair.....BMW do say however that all is well.
I'll be interested to know the outcome Eddie.
Jazzer
Ive just been out in the car again and attempted a 're-bed' of the pads. All went well and the discs look a lovely uniform silver. Once that was done i took her down the 'private strip' for another higher speed brake test. Same issue again. The brakes are fine below 70mph but above, say 100, there is a definate shake in the steering (not the brake pedal), sometimes quite violent. From that i reckon we can say that the discs and pads are fine and that i should be looking nearer the control arms, bushes and ball joints. Only thing for it is to book her into BMW and see what they find (thank god for my Insured Warranty). Ive now taken to leaving the car in 1st when parked up with no handbrake applied to see if this helps but i really do think my problem is suspension / steering based.
I'll keep you posted when she goes in.
Eddie
I'll keep you posted when she goes in.
Eddie
Edited by ecain63 on Wednesday 17th November 19:09
m33ufo said:
I've never had a problem with M car brakes on the road although it's a recognised upgrade.
The brakes on my M5 show no signs of judder even when braking from much higher speeds.
The more i research and the more people respond, the more im leaning toward something around the bushes / rods area. Seems that warping the discs is uber-rare (only happens after hard track use or abuse after new and unprepped pads) and even parking up with the handbrake on after a hard drive would struggle to do any damage to worn discs, let alone practically new ones. The E39 suffered a bit on the brake front but as far as i can tell the E60 has very few anchor issues, but something of a lack of durability in the bushes and rods front.The brakes on my M5 show no signs of judder even when braking from much higher speeds.
Eddie
Were the brake pads in question fitted to the car before or after you bought it? If so did you notice this problem with the old pads fitted? Seems a coincidence if the problem has just occured since the fitting of the new pads?
I have noticed on cars in the past that when fitting new pads to existing or worn discs that brake judder can occur at first.Its as if the new pads have to bed in to the wear on the disc made by the old pads.
They may just take a while longer to bed in properly.
Does sound like a brake problem though,and judder caused by this is usually only felt at motorway speeds and above on most cars.
I have noticed on cars in the past that when fitting new pads to existing or worn discs that brake judder can occur at first.Its as if the new pads have to bed in to the wear on the disc made by the old pads.
They may just take a while longer to bed in properly.
Does sound like a brake problem though,and judder caused by this is usually only felt at motorway speeds and above on most cars.
Nedz said:
Were the brake pads in question fitted to the car before or after you bought it? If so did you notice this problem with the old pads fitted? Seems a coincidence if the problem has just occured since the fitting of the new pads?
I have noticed on cars in the past that when fitting new pads to existing or worn discs that brake judder can occur at first.Its as if the new pads have to bed in to the wear on the disc made by the old pads.
They may just take a while longer to bed in properly.
Does sound like a brake problem though, and judder caused by this is usually only felt at motorway speeds and above on most cars.
Thanks for the response mate. The pads were fitted on the day i paid for the car, by the BMW dealer who last serviced it. It was all arranged by the seller and i have the reciept as proof. The discs have no wear on them at all (no lip or marks) so i can only assume that its down to something else. The vibration doesnt come through the brake pedal in any way so im loathed to look much further down this route. The pedal i feel is sensitive enough to indicate a problem, proof of this is that i can feel the low pitch grind of the drilled holes through the pedal when braking. Surely a disc judder would be quite obvious under your right foot, at least more so than the feel of the drilled disc surface.I have noticed on cars in the past that when fitting new pads to existing or worn discs that brake judder can occur at first.Its as if the new pads have to bed in to the wear on the disc made by the old pads.
They may just take a while longer to bed in properly.
Does sound like a brake problem though, and judder caused by this is usually only felt at motorway speeds and above on most cars.
What has changed my mind about the brake issue is the now apparent (i just hadnt singled out its source before) vibration / shake trough the steering wheel. The fact that it only happens under braking above normal road speed may be an indication that the abnormal flex of a split / worn bush or popped ball joint might require higher stress you'd get below 70 to get a noticable amount if play.
Either way, i'll be dropping the car in to the local BMW dealer to see what they find. My intention is to sit in on the test drives and at the workshop so i should get a good idea of whats going on.
Eddie
so after 3k your car had damaged the discs?... mine were clearly not new when I bought the car and i've done nearly 4k including some hard braking from much higher speeds than you mention and whilst you can feel them working hard they dont judder.
Were the discs you had faulty or incorrectly fitted?
Were the discs you had faulty or incorrectly fitted?
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