E60 / 61 Clutch Dilema!
Discussion
As some of you will have read, ive been doing some research into the 'life and times' of the SMG clutch and the reasons for its failure. After reaching a point where i thought i had a strong case for blaming the release bearing / guide bush relationship i stumbled upon a problem. I got some 'judder' of my own on puling away in S3.
I still sent, as planned, an email to my local dealer to see if the release bearing issue was well known and if it was coinsidered a warranty issue. Amazingly my email was responded to very quickly and the outcome was better than expected.
The short of it is that YES the release bearing issue would be covered if there were signs that the guide bush or bearing were notched, worn, dry etc. It wasnt something they were overly familiar with but on taking my advice to google the issue they could see my point. However, if its not any of those things and the clutch is worn then its new clutch, flywheel, bearing and bush time, and more importantly time to hand over circa £2700 to the man. Not a problem so long as there is proof that the clutch is actually the cause, i didnt buy this car blindly.
BMW will not deviate from what they call their 'control blocks', which dictate what is replaced and what is not. So, in one sense,if the bearing is whacked then you get the whole lot, clutch and fly included, for free. If its the clutch then you have to pay for the whole lot.
The alternative is to take the car to my local indy (very good indy) and get them to check out the problem. Obviously i'd be paying for the work but if its just the bearing and bush then im looking at no more than £420 all in. If the clutch is caput then it'll be just short of £2000. Either way im forking out, but could potentially be cheaper if the clutch is in need of refit.
So, going by this and that my car an 07 E61 and has only done 43k, has only every been lauched once, i only get the judder when the car is warm and from a slow take off (if i plant it then there is no judder at all), only in slow modes S1 to 3 (S4 and S5 seem to be better at getting the clutch down more firmly): What would be the advice and opinions of the masses?
I took the car out on saturday and the judder was there in the background for the whole start stop journey around town, i was in S3. I left the car for a few hours, got back in and there was no judder on the return trip despite my attempts to induce it. On sunday i decided to give it some stick in S5, S6, P400, P500 and P500S and there was no judder under hard acceleration.
What do you think?
Eddie
I still sent, as planned, an email to my local dealer to see if the release bearing issue was well known and if it was coinsidered a warranty issue. Amazingly my email was responded to very quickly and the outcome was better than expected.
The short of it is that YES the release bearing issue would be covered if there were signs that the guide bush or bearing were notched, worn, dry etc. It wasnt something they were overly familiar with but on taking my advice to google the issue they could see my point. However, if its not any of those things and the clutch is worn then its new clutch, flywheel, bearing and bush time, and more importantly time to hand over circa £2700 to the man. Not a problem so long as there is proof that the clutch is actually the cause, i didnt buy this car blindly.
BMW will not deviate from what they call their 'control blocks', which dictate what is replaced and what is not. So, in one sense,if the bearing is whacked then you get the whole lot, clutch and fly included, for free. If its the clutch then you have to pay for the whole lot.
The alternative is to take the car to my local indy (very good indy) and get them to check out the problem. Obviously i'd be paying for the work but if its just the bearing and bush then im looking at no more than £420 all in. If the clutch is caput then it'll be just short of £2000. Either way im forking out, but could potentially be cheaper if the clutch is in need of refit.
So, going by this and that my car an 07 E61 and has only done 43k, has only every been lauched once, i only get the judder when the car is warm and from a slow take off (if i plant it then there is no judder at all), only in slow modes S1 to 3 (S4 and S5 seem to be better at getting the clutch down more firmly): What would be the advice and opinions of the masses?
I took the car out on saturday and the judder was there in the background for the whole start stop journey around town, i was in S3. I left the car for a few hours, got back in and there was no judder on the return trip despite my attempts to induce it. On sunday i decided to give it some stick in S5, S6, P400, P500 and P500S and there was no judder under hard acceleration.
What do you think?
Eddie
Edited by ecain63 on Monday 7th February 13:47
groucho said:
I used to get a bit of judder on take off until I did the SMG reset thingy.
Yeah, i did a clutch reset about 3 weeks ago, got the judder on saturday and then did the reset again. It hasnt returned since so fingers crossed. Still plays on my mind though. I try to remember to so the reset every 3 or 4 weeks but annoyingly its the sort of thing you only remember once you've arrived at your destination.I spoke to my dealer again this avo to find out what experience they have of the bearing/bush issue. He did say during our morning chat that it wasnt something they were aware of as a regular issue in the UK but could see my point. He did add this time though that they often dont take note of the condition of the parts that get junked. When something like the clutch needs doing its simply out with the old and in with the new.
I asked him also how many clutch replacments they had done at the workshop and what age the cars were. He said that he'd seen numerous M3 SMG's with very low miles needing full SMG rebuilds (as per what we already know), he'd seen quite afew 2005/6 M5's needing new clutches at anywhere from 10k to 40k and then in 20k incriments above. Asking whether or not he's seen any 07's or later come through his answer was 'only one'. Im guessing that one was the 08' Schnitzer saloon that they had in recently (was for sale but never sold so moved it on) that had alot of mechanical repair work done according to the sales girl. His advice was to continue driving as normal and if the judder returned he'd pull the codes and see what came up.
On the flip side i did phone CA Automotive and asked what they thought. The answer was blunt: 'Your clutch is on its way out!'. Hmmmmmmmmm! Not convinced myself but only time will tell. As there is no slippage in any gear everything points to the bearing/bush but as the judder has gone for now im going to do as Mr BMW said and just hope it was a glitch.
Eddie
Appreciate your diligence here Eddie! With 42k on the clock, I've been wondering whether I might soon be looking at a clutch problem too. However, I don't have any feeling that the clutch is slipping in normal or spirited use, so I am of the mind that worry is premature.
I do however experience the judder you describe, but only when I've been driving for a good while, and only on a slow take off from 2nd, and only occasionally. I had decided that its nothing to worry about, as it doesnt reappear if I park up for a while. It feels like the clutch plate is grabbing a little, as if it has got a bit hot and is maybe slightly fouled? Not that I understand the full workings of it by any stretch! If it doesnt get any worse, than it's of no consequence really I think.
I am interested however in the exact warranty terms, and the situation in which a failed clutch would be covered. Thanks for quizzing your stealer so thoroughly. If I do get the red cog of death I certainly will be closely interrogating the cause before letting them off the hook!
I do however experience the judder you describe, but only when I've been driving for a good while, and only on a slow take off from 2nd, and only occasionally. I had decided that its nothing to worry about, as it doesnt reappear if I park up for a while. It feels like the clutch plate is grabbing a little, as if it has got a bit hot and is maybe slightly fouled? Not that I understand the full workings of it by any stretch! If it doesnt get any worse, than it's of no consequence really I think.
I am interested however in the exact warranty terms, and the situation in which a failed clutch would be covered. Thanks for quizzing your stealer so thoroughly. If I do get the red cog of death I certainly will be closely interrogating the cause before letting them off the hook!
No worries mate, its things like this that need investigating if we are to make progress. There is some info on the workings of the release bearing and guide bush in the link on my other thread further down the page. Its titled 'E60/61 owners read this'. Its got some good pics too.
Eddie
Eddie
Just reading the warranty booklet now. Regarding the clutch... all components covered except for clutch facings. Not sure what that means as I'm a bit t'ick.
Edited to add:
On page 16 there is quite a worrying passage.
Wear and tear exclusions.
As the insured vehicle's age and mileage increases, more components will reach the end of their serviceable life due to normal wear and tear. These components will require replacement at YOUR cost and will not be reimbursed under this policy.
Souns a bit vague to me.
Edited to add:
On page 16 there is quite a worrying passage.
Wear and tear exclusions.
As the insured vehicle's age and mileage increases, more components will reach the end of their serviceable life due to normal wear and tear. These components will require replacement at YOUR cost and will not be reimbursed under this policy.
Souns a bit vague to me.
Edited by groucho on Tuesday 8th February 19:21
The clutch is if you can prove it has premature wear for the use of the vehicle; ie has it been ragged / tracked etc? The clutch is covered if the bearing/bush is deemed to be responsible. Its covered if it decides to become unstable and shatter itself (normally due to it clipping the bearing as it engages or overheating due to partial engagment). Its covered if the pump is faulty causing poor application of the clutch facings. Its covered if anything else breaks in there causing it to fail or shatter. Its also covered if the smg fluid leaks onto the facings causing it to slip or burn.
Its not covered if the clutch is worn and has acceptible mileage. Its not covered if you have exceeded the accepted number of launches allowed / are proven to have abused the car by tracking it or dragging it up the strip causing the clutch to overheat / have had the car mapped or modified to improve performance. They can tell these things by reading the data logs and getting BMW Germany to read off the number of launches and style of driving.
Pretty straight forward really.
Its not covered if the clutch is worn and has acceptible mileage. Its not covered if you have exceeded the accepted number of launches allowed / are proven to have abused the car by tracking it or dragging it up the strip causing the clutch to overheat / have had the car mapped or modified to improve performance. They can tell these things by reading the data logs and getting BMW Germany to read off the number of launches and style of driving.
Pretty straight forward really.
Edited by ecain63 on Tuesday 8th February 19:48
Yes, thank you. The passage I was referring to in the handbook refrs to all components though. I know I'm getting away from clutch issues, but the way I see it is; if you are paying more for your warranty on a high mileage car then how can they not cover for these components?
I'm only on 22k at the moment so early days.
It doesn't look like it's worth getting a warranty on a higher mileage car after reading that.
I'm only on 22k at the moment so early days.
It doesn't look like it's worth getting a warranty on a higher mileage car after reading that.
groucho said:
Yes, thank you. The passage I was referring to in the handbook refrs to all components though. I know I'm getting away from clutch issues, but the way I see it is; if you are paying more for your warranty on a high mileage car then how can they not cover for these components?
I'm only on 22k at the moment so early days.
It doesn't look like it's worth getting a warranty on a higher mileage car after reading that.
I see your point mate. I dont believe they charge extra for higher mileage though. So long as the car is inspected regularly then they shouldnt be able to say that the parts were broken due to age. Its BMW's job to tell you when they need replacing, not to tell you they needed replacing when they actually break. I'm only on 22k at the moment so early days.
It doesn't look like it's worth getting a warranty on a higher mileage car after reading that.
I do know though that with some marques they make you pay a percentage of the repair cost depending on the age / mileage of the car. Maybe this is the way they will play it.
ecain63 said:
Out of interest, is that just a software update or a specific clutch facility? Mine has the latest software I believe.
No it's not a software update, it's a process the dealer uses to set the thickness of a new clutch I think. I get mine reset every few months and car is super smooth after it. Would be worth a try, I find my gearbox works best in S6 around town etc. My personal favourite after trying all settings in the last 80k kms!!Dave 321 said:
No it's not a software update, it's a process the dealer uses to set the thickness of a new clutch I think. I get mine reset every few months and car is super smooth after it. Would be worth a try, I find my gearbox works best in S6 around town etc. My personal favourite after trying all settings in the last 80k kms!!
Yeah ive found myself prefering S5 of late. I spent the past 3 months driving in S3 most of the time but over the last two weeks i relly got into S5 because of the quicker, more delibrate changes. Im not fixed on what i want though. I have this OCD about cranking things to the max / min. I prefer to stick it in the middle, whether it be the climate control, heated seats or any other variable. It annoys the hell out of me when the missus gets in the passenger seat and puts the heater up to max temp and has the seats on full pelt. Grrrrrrrrr! Maybe i need so spend more time in S5 to get over it. As for the clutch reset, im booked in at my local BMW specialist on Saturday to have it done so i'll let you know if i feel any changes. The stealer wanted 2 hours labour to do it!! Thats £250 in old money. My local will only charge £50 or so. No contest.
Eddie
ecain63 said:
Yeah ive found myself prefering S5 of late. I spent the past 3 months driving in S3 most of the time but over the last two weeks i relly got into S5 because of the quicker, more delibrate changes. Im not fixed on what i want though. I have this OCD about cranking things to the max / min. I prefer to stick it in the middle, whether it be the climate control, heated seats or any other variable. It annoys the hell out of me when the missus gets in the passenger seat and puts the heater up to max temp and has the seats on full pelt. Grrrrrrrrr! Maybe i need so spend more time in S5 to get over it.
As for the clutch reset, im booked in at my local BMW specialist on Saturday to have it done so i'll let you know if i feel any changes. The stealer wanted 2 hours labour to do it!! Thats £250 in old money. My local will only charge £50 or so. No contest.
Eddie
Robbers Eddie! I stood with the tech as he did the reset, takes about 15 mins max!As for the clutch reset, im booked in at my local BMW specialist on Saturday to have it done so i'll let you know if i feel any changes. The stealer wanted 2 hours labour to do it!! Thats £250 in old money. My local will only charge £50 or so. No contest.
Eddie
Keep me posted!
I think the SMG gearbox is horrible in anything other than S5 or S6 most M5's feel a bit awkard at the lower levels. Turn it up and keep it up, feather the throttle to ease the change.
But at 40+k I would consider the clutch to be near its life. (Yes some last to 90 as do some smokers) but 40- 50k you would expect that to be the 'life' of a clutch in a 500 bhp car.
But at 40+k I would consider the clutch to be near its life. (Yes some last to 90 as do some smokers) but 40- 50k you would expect that to be the 'life' of a clutch in a 500 bhp car.
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