Response from BMWUK / Stealer ref: E60/61 M5 'Judder' email!
Discussion
As some of you may have read, i sent BMWUK an email at the weekend to ask what their position was regarding the issue of clutch 'judder' and the SMG box. The response was this:
A very helpfull and excitable bloke called Carl phoned this afternoon from the Yorkshire based customer services department of BMWUK (i did crack a funny about 'Heaven 17' working there when i heard his voice). After congratualting me on my purchase and telling me that the guy sat next to him was BMW's biggest M5 fan we got on with the matter in hand. Not knowing a huge amount about the SMG box himself, but having consulted his compadre's he said he could see my point and agreed that to the layman the judder shouldnt be put down to clutch wear as the judder only happens when pulling away in 1st and there is no evidence of slippage in 1st or in any other gear. He said he had spoken to the service manager at my local dealer to get is view on this and the following was explained;
My local service manager had apparently said that the symptoms pointed toward a component drying up, adding to the evidence that the guide bush loses its lubrication resulting in the release bearing dragging when it is moved along the bush. The service manager had also apparently said that it would be unusual for a 2007 SMG to need a new clutch at 44k miles and that the symptoms did not point toward the SMG pump either, as per my findings.
When they discussed my Warranty they agreed that if the guide bush or bearing were faulty then the repair would be covered. If it was a worn clutch then that would not be covered. This is all in line with the black and white print in the warranty booklet but at 44k i did not agree that i should have to pay for a new clutch given the service managers opinion of the expected clutch life, that asside we cracked on. Still being very helpfull and positive, Carl assured me that my local dealer would (his words) 'welcome me with open arms' and would be 'more than happy to maintain my prestigious vehicle'. 'Just give him a call in your own time, when you are ready, and he'll be more than happy to talk it through'. Haha, i was starting to cringe. Thanking him for being so helpfull i ended the call feeling very good and very upbeat about the whole thing.
How things can change!!!
I popped in to my local dealer on the way home and asked to speak to the service manager. Turns out i'd just missed him and he was busy completing a road test. The nice girl at the desk took my number and assured me they would get him to call me.
I was out walking my dogs when he called but i had to stop in my tracks when i absorbed what he was saying. I opened with, 'i spoke to Carl from BMWUK today and he said you are the man to talk to regarding my judder issue'? His response was, 'i dont know why he told you im the man to speak to!. Yes i spoke to him but i didnt say im the man you need to speak to!' On that note i could sense the tide might be turning.
When i asked him to confirm he thought it was a dry component he told me he didnt say that. He then told me that if the bush was dry, the repair would not be covered because neither the bush or the bearing had failed. I explained that the bush / bearing probably would not have failed and that the issue was usually to do with the lack of lubrication between the two. He stopped me there and point blank said, 'your policy does not cover oils or lubricants'! Arguing that this was not a normal oil or lubricant failure he started to get very automated and blunt, telling me that they would only cover it if the bearing or bush failed, not if they had gone dry. The tone he was using gave me the impression he was having a bad day and i was feeling the sharp end of it but thats no excuse.
I asked him if he thought it was normal for the lubricant to fail and he said that its just 'wear and tear and would not be covered'. You can imagine im getting a bit hacked off now so i started to question whether they used any common sense when addressing these issues. 'Surely the fact that this part has dried up is down to poor lubrication as its not a service item'. 'No Mr Cain this is not covered'! It doesnt get checked every 10k as part of routine scheduled inspection so surely it must be expected to last the life of the box. Its not even a part that is detailed for change in the process of a clutch change. The book says that they only have to change the bearing rather than the bearing and the bush.
More words and automated responses are exchanged and i decide to end the call in a bid to try Carl at BMWUK again. No such luck as he had fininshed for the day. I'll try him again tomorrow.
The point i am making is, what the hell is going on with the dealer? BMWUK are are agreeing with my case in theory. The evidence is there and they have the pictures i have recovered from other owners. They speak to the dealer and they get a fairly positive response. I speak to them to potentially book it in for repair and they try to bend me over, telling me its not covered and that there is no space for common sense. I bought the BMW Warranty because i thought that it was the best, most comrehensive cover you could get. Im starting to have my doubts now about the whole warranty thing. Granted they did cover my wiring issue at xmas but that was pretty clear cut.
What do i do next? If BMW dont think its a clutch issue, the dealer doesnt think its a clutch issue but wont cover the dry surface between the bush and bearing, where do i stand? Common sense would say that this should be covered. I know some other owners have had this covered. Its all very annoying.
The good thing is the judder hasnt returned since it first appeared 10 days ago so im in no rush to get the box pulled. But, should it return i'd like to think i had a bit of support from BMW.
A very helpfull and excitable bloke called Carl phoned this afternoon from the Yorkshire based customer services department of BMWUK (i did crack a funny about 'Heaven 17' working there when i heard his voice). After congratualting me on my purchase and telling me that the guy sat next to him was BMW's biggest M5 fan we got on with the matter in hand. Not knowing a huge amount about the SMG box himself, but having consulted his compadre's he said he could see my point and agreed that to the layman the judder shouldnt be put down to clutch wear as the judder only happens when pulling away in 1st and there is no evidence of slippage in 1st or in any other gear. He said he had spoken to the service manager at my local dealer to get is view on this and the following was explained;
My local service manager had apparently said that the symptoms pointed toward a component drying up, adding to the evidence that the guide bush loses its lubrication resulting in the release bearing dragging when it is moved along the bush. The service manager had also apparently said that it would be unusual for a 2007 SMG to need a new clutch at 44k miles and that the symptoms did not point toward the SMG pump either, as per my findings.
When they discussed my Warranty they agreed that if the guide bush or bearing were faulty then the repair would be covered. If it was a worn clutch then that would not be covered. This is all in line with the black and white print in the warranty booklet but at 44k i did not agree that i should have to pay for a new clutch given the service managers opinion of the expected clutch life, that asside we cracked on. Still being very helpfull and positive, Carl assured me that my local dealer would (his words) 'welcome me with open arms' and would be 'more than happy to maintain my prestigious vehicle'. 'Just give him a call in your own time, when you are ready, and he'll be more than happy to talk it through'. Haha, i was starting to cringe. Thanking him for being so helpfull i ended the call feeling very good and very upbeat about the whole thing.
How things can change!!!
I popped in to my local dealer on the way home and asked to speak to the service manager. Turns out i'd just missed him and he was busy completing a road test. The nice girl at the desk took my number and assured me they would get him to call me.
I was out walking my dogs when he called but i had to stop in my tracks when i absorbed what he was saying. I opened with, 'i spoke to Carl from BMWUK today and he said you are the man to talk to regarding my judder issue'? His response was, 'i dont know why he told you im the man to speak to!. Yes i spoke to him but i didnt say im the man you need to speak to!' On that note i could sense the tide might be turning.
When i asked him to confirm he thought it was a dry component he told me he didnt say that. He then told me that if the bush was dry, the repair would not be covered because neither the bush or the bearing had failed. I explained that the bush / bearing probably would not have failed and that the issue was usually to do with the lack of lubrication between the two. He stopped me there and point blank said, 'your policy does not cover oils or lubricants'! Arguing that this was not a normal oil or lubricant failure he started to get very automated and blunt, telling me that they would only cover it if the bearing or bush failed, not if they had gone dry. The tone he was using gave me the impression he was having a bad day and i was feeling the sharp end of it but thats no excuse.
I asked him if he thought it was normal for the lubricant to fail and he said that its just 'wear and tear and would not be covered'. You can imagine im getting a bit hacked off now so i started to question whether they used any common sense when addressing these issues. 'Surely the fact that this part has dried up is down to poor lubrication as its not a service item'. 'No Mr Cain this is not covered'! It doesnt get checked every 10k as part of routine scheduled inspection so surely it must be expected to last the life of the box. Its not even a part that is detailed for change in the process of a clutch change. The book says that they only have to change the bearing rather than the bearing and the bush.
More words and automated responses are exchanged and i decide to end the call in a bid to try Carl at BMWUK again. No such luck as he had fininshed for the day. I'll try him again tomorrow.
The point i am making is, what the hell is going on with the dealer? BMWUK are are agreeing with my case in theory. The evidence is there and they have the pictures i have recovered from other owners. They speak to the dealer and they get a fairly positive response. I speak to them to potentially book it in for repair and they try to bend me over, telling me its not covered and that there is no space for common sense. I bought the BMW Warranty because i thought that it was the best, most comrehensive cover you could get. Im starting to have my doubts now about the whole warranty thing. Granted they did cover my wiring issue at xmas but that was pretty clear cut.
What do i do next? If BMW dont think its a clutch issue, the dealer doesnt think its a clutch issue but wont cover the dry surface between the bush and bearing, where do i stand? Common sense would say that this should be covered. I know some other owners have had this covered. Its all very annoying.
The good thing is the judder hasnt returned since it first appeared 10 days ago so im in no rush to get the box pulled. But, should it return i'd like to think i had a bit of support from BMW.
On a positive note, it will not ultimately be the dealer who decides what is going to be covered by the warranty, it will be BMW UK.
The guy you have spoken to seems to have familiarised himself with your problem, and after consulting with his collegues they have decided that it will be covered.
The phone call you recieved telling you that it's covered will presumably have been recorded, and be available if required.
I don't know why the service manager's creating a fuss, it's not as if they don't get paid for warranty work.
The guy you have spoken to seems to have familiarised himself with your problem, and after consulting with his collegues they have decided that it will be covered.
The phone call you recieved telling you that it's covered will presumably have been recorded, and be available if required.
I don't know why the service manager's creating a fuss, it's not as if they don't get paid for warranty work.
M5Dave said:
On a positive note, it will not ultimately be the dealer who decides what is going to be covered by the warranty, it will be BMW UK.
The guy you have spoken to seems to have familiarised himself with your problem, and after consulting with his collegues they have decided that it will be covered.
The phone call you recieved telling you that it's covered will presumably have been recorded, and be available if required.
I don't know why the service manager's creating a fuss, it's not as if they don't get paid for warranty work.
Im confused too, you'd think they would welcome it. I do know that this particular service rep has a history of upsetting customers, including my father in law who plain refuses to deal with him following an issue with a 645i he bought from the same dealer.The guy you have spoken to seems to have familiarised himself with your problem, and after consulting with his collegues they have decided that it will be covered.
The phone call you recieved telling you that it's covered will presumably have been recorded, and be available if required.
I don't know why the service manager's creating a fuss, it's not as if they don't get paid for warranty work.
I'll phone Carl again tomorrow but im more tempted than ever to have my indy do the work, regardless of whether its covered by BMW or not. At my indy the labour and parts (bearing and bush) will only come to £435 so its not like i'll be be forking out a life changing amount to get the job done. BMW might turn round and request the whole £2700 if they refuse the claim on the grounds that they dont cover failed lubricants.
Obviously i'd prefer to use BMW but i dont want to get shafted without reason.
I dont know how far you are from South Lakes but you could do a lot worse than speak to Andy the service manager at Batemans BMW.
They have been more than helpful with any warranty work that needed doing on my M3 when I had it. They have even gone as far as replacing parts I didnt know were coverd.
They have been more than helpful with any warranty work that needed doing on my M3 when I had it. They have even gone as far as replacing parts I didnt know were coverd.
Good luck with that one, did you see my thread re dealers and BMW UK.
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
BMW UK were always very helpful, understanding and supportive (to me) but actually did nothing to put any weight behind me when I would confront the dealer.
I've had the "the judder" on and off. I'd be interested to see the outcome of this.....
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
BMW UK were always very helpful, understanding and supportive (to me) but actually did nothing to put any weight behind me when I would confront the dealer.
I've had the "the judder" on and off. I'd be interested to see the outcome of this.....
Thats VERY strange! What a sucky attitude! It is the BEST in terest of the dealer to do the work, it keeps you happy they get paid by BMW UK everyone wins, I'm utterly shocked at this cocks attitude! You're aware of my only issue and apart from that they have passed everything under warranty, even the spark plug leads at one point because they wanted me happy and didn;t care because BMW UK paid for it!
Time to swap dealers ed!
Time to swap dealers ed!
Slurms said:
Change dealer, if this one is being that unhelpful use someone else. Plenty of BMW dealers around..
This again.I've had a few M cars now and although problems have been few, when they have arisen it has always been on the strength of communication between m'self and the M technician, if not (on one occasion) the service manager himself, that the true and full extent of the problem has been taken onboard.
If your service manager of all people is hiding behind his limited repertoire of standard exclusions then, if you can, walk away. I'm not in your neck of the woods so unfortunately I can't recommend an alternative dealer but you may find that you have to travel a fair old distance just to be in the company of someone who understands these cars and their owners and gives the matter its due attention.
I look forward to hearing of a positive outcome...
ecain63 said:
That was going to be my next question. Anyone know a good, caring dealer on the south coast. I'm not asking BMW to agree to pay for the repairs, I'm more interested in finding a dealer who is willing to listen to my side of the story and not just read from the book.
I use Westerly in Dorchester. Can't complain so far.Hi all, more news from the front.
I phoned Carl back today and as expected he was very supportive and interested in what had happened with my dealer (now ex-dealer!!!). I explained that i'd not had the most positive experience with the service manager and was suprised by his negative attitude and plain rudeness! He upheld his own opinion that he though that my theory sounded correct and that the service manager had also leant toward the same diagnosis on the previous day. He advised me that BMWUK keep records of all dealings with customers so my original enquiry, BMW's response and my subsequent return call this morning were all on record and detailed in my file. He advised me of the complaints chain and said that he was keen to see this resolved. Should i need to follow this line he said he would gladly assist me with the paper trail.
I dont really intend on putting in a complaint about my local service manager, all i wanted was to speak to someone who was willing to listen to my views and then input his own angle, not to shoot me down before the kick off. With that Carl asked me to keep him personally informed on my progress as he was keen to see the outcome, whether it be good or bad. Another thing he did add today was this:
As of monday the 21st feb, BMWUK will no longer be responsible for deciding if the customer is entitled to goodwill compensation if the repair is not covered by a warranty, but is deemed to be componenet error. This means that you will no longer be able to phone up BMWUK to dispute a claim turned down by your dealer. ie. if your clutch fails at 20k BMWUK will not be able to lean any weight on the dealer to say it is premature wear and should be covered. The decision is entirely with your dealer and there is also now a limit of £2000 goodwill toward any repair bill. So, if you have a s
tty service manager like i do, you wont be able to complain to BMWUK if he is having an 'off day' and not listening to your grievances about unjustified bills. And, even if they do grant you good will, it'll only be for £2000, thats £700 short of a new clutch (£2700 approx). Maybe my service manager is working in advance of the 21st and turning down work to save his franchise money.
So, we finished our call and again i left feeling a bit more positive. In the twilight of the conversation and on reading your comments above i decided to to ditch my local dealer and am now searching for a better replacment. Dorchester sounds like a well trialed centre and i believe Scotthall in Southampton is pretty fair on the customer. I'll make a couple of calls tomorrow and see what they say, but if anyone has an info regarding these dealers then please let me know.
I called in on my local dealer tonight to see the service manager in person, intent on thanking him for confirming the bad press i'd read / heard previous to the issue above. Sadly he wasnt in so i have a night to stew on it before trying again tomorrow. I do feel very let down by my dealer, especially seeing as BMWUK have been so keen to see my side of the coin. I'll keep them updated, and you guys too, i have a feeling the outcome of this will affect quite a number of M5 owners as it will add leverage to the argument against the 'worn clutch' diagnosis. If my attempt to get a BMW dealer on board fails then i do have a back up plan:
For the purposes of reference / to give to BMWUK for future use / to aid the PH masses, i will have the gearbox stripped at my local indy. They are very good at what they do and as a bonus the final cost will be a great deal less than having BMW bend me over (approx £1800 vs £2700 for a clutch job). I plan on spending the day in the workshop armed with a camera and laptop, giving realtime updates here so you can see the progress / results. I'll book this in for 28th Feb / 1st March if BMW dont want to play so keep your eyes peeled. Hopefully this will help and maybe a correct diagnosis will mean i could claim something back from BMWUK via my helpfull contact Carl.
This aint over. There is no fat bird singing. To be continued....................
Eddie
I phoned Carl back today and as expected he was very supportive and interested in what had happened with my dealer (now ex-dealer!!!). I explained that i'd not had the most positive experience with the service manager and was suprised by his negative attitude and plain rudeness! He upheld his own opinion that he though that my theory sounded correct and that the service manager had also leant toward the same diagnosis on the previous day. He advised me that BMWUK keep records of all dealings with customers so my original enquiry, BMW's response and my subsequent return call this morning were all on record and detailed in my file. He advised me of the complaints chain and said that he was keen to see this resolved. Should i need to follow this line he said he would gladly assist me with the paper trail.
I dont really intend on putting in a complaint about my local service manager, all i wanted was to speak to someone who was willing to listen to my views and then input his own angle, not to shoot me down before the kick off. With that Carl asked me to keep him personally informed on my progress as he was keen to see the outcome, whether it be good or bad. Another thing he did add today was this:
As of monday the 21st feb, BMWUK will no longer be responsible for deciding if the customer is entitled to goodwill compensation if the repair is not covered by a warranty, but is deemed to be componenet error. This means that you will no longer be able to phone up BMWUK to dispute a claim turned down by your dealer. ie. if your clutch fails at 20k BMWUK will not be able to lean any weight on the dealer to say it is premature wear and should be covered. The decision is entirely with your dealer and there is also now a limit of £2000 goodwill toward any repair bill. So, if you have a s
tty service manager like i do, you wont be able to complain to BMWUK if he is having an 'off day' and not listening to your grievances about unjustified bills. And, even if they do grant you good will, it'll only be for £2000, thats £700 short of a new clutch (£2700 approx). Maybe my service manager is working in advance of the 21st and turning down work to save his franchise money. So, we finished our call and again i left feeling a bit more positive. In the twilight of the conversation and on reading your comments above i decided to to ditch my local dealer and am now searching for a better replacment. Dorchester sounds like a well trialed centre and i believe Scotthall in Southampton is pretty fair on the customer. I'll make a couple of calls tomorrow and see what they say, but if anyone has an info regarding these dealers then please let me know.
I called in on my local dealer tonight to see the service manager in person, intent on thanking him for confirming the bad press i'd read / heard previous to the issue above. Sadly he wasnt in so i have a night to stew on it before trying again tomorrow. I do feel very let down by my dealer, especially seeing as BMWUK have been so keen to see my side of the coin. I'll keep them updated, and you guys too, i have a feeling the outcome of this will affect quite a number of M5 owners as it will add leverage to the argument against the 'worn clutch' diagnosis. If my attempt to get a BMW dealer on board fails then i do have a back up plan:
For the purposes of reference / to give to BMWUK for future use / to aid the PH masses, i will have the gearbox stripped at my local indy. They are very good at what they do and as a bonus the final cost will be a great deal less than having BMW bend me over (approx £1800 vs £2700 for a clutch job). I plan on spending the day in the workshop armed with a camera and laptop, giving realtime updates here so you can see the progress / results. I'll book this in for 28th Feb / 1st March if BMW dont want to play so keep your eyes peeled. Hopefully this will help and maybe a correct diagnosis will mean i could claim something back from BMWUK via my helpfull contact Carl.
This aint over. There is no fat bird singing. To be continued....................
Eddie
Good of you to do all this for the masses on here as well as yourself.
To me, the issue you talk of does smell like a badly designed and crucial part of the gearbox. I've launched my Skyline GTR a load of times in the past (twin plated, uprated clutch) and it will last far longer than an M5's clutch. I dont know the exact workings of a clutch but failiures an any SMG type gearboxes (SMG 1, 2 etc etc) as early as 20k miles is unexeptable. Was there a known reason as to why they updated the SMG gearboxes? What was wrong with the first one to make them redesign it and bring out the SMG2?
To me, the issue you talk of does smell like a badly designed and crucial part of the gearbox. I've launched my Skyline GTR a load of times in the past (twin plated, uprated clutch) and it will last far longer than an M5's clutch. I dont know the exact workings of a clutch but failiures an any SMG type gearboxes (SMG 1, 2 etc etc) as early as 20k miles is unexeptable. Was there a known reason as to why they updated the SMG gearboxes? What was wrong with the first one to make them redesign it and bring out the SMG2?
ecain63 said:
As of monday the 21st feb, BMWUK will no longer be responsible for deciding if the customer is entitled to goodwill compensation if the repair is not covered by a warranty, but is deemed to be componenet error. This means that you will no longer be able to phone up BMWUK to dispute a claim turned down by your dealer. ie. if your clutch fails at 20k BMWUK will not be able to lean any weight on the dealer to say it is premature wear and should be covered. The decision is entirely with your dealer and there is also now a limit of £2000 goodwill toward any repair bill. So, if you have a stty service manager like i do, you wont be able to complain to BMWUK if he is having an 'off day' and not listening to your grievances about unjustified bills. .........
Hmmm...I can see a few of those decisions ending up being examined in court. Don't forget the Sale of Goods Act phrase "warranty is in addition to your statutory rights".tty service manager like i do, you wont be able to complain to BMWUK if he is having an 'off day' and not listening to your grievances about unjustified bills. ......... Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff