Some m62 questions
Discussion
M62 on a 1.8 no intercooler just management, stock pulley, what sort of power, must be more than m45s? so 180 ish? to increase that power is it like an m45 in that that intercooler is really needed before you spin it faster & use bigger injectors?
Whats the normal sort of power steps?
Have been offerd an m62 car is all, love my m45 just want more go, think id prefer to go the s/c route than turbo.
Lazza in your early spec & as evo tested & the dyno plot below-
http://www.planetmx5.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=428...
Was it to the spec mentioned in the list? as wondering as later you said changed to 320 injectors? you are running much more power now 250 odd? whats else did you need add/change to achive?
BRP MP62 R2 supercharger (P5)
TDR air/air intercooler (P5)
120mm crank pulley (Mi5 - Nutz)
Adaptronic e420C ecu (P5)
550cc RC Injectors (P5)
AEM Uego O2 Sensor + Gauge (Sausages - Nutz)
FM Twincooler (combined uprated coolant radiator and oil-cooler) (P5)
TDR Insulated Heat Shield (P5)
RB Power Pulse Dual exhaust (P5)
Larini Sport Cat pipe (P5)
Larini exhaust mid-pipe (P5)
RB Ultra ignition wires (P5)
2 Autometer Ultra-Lite gauges (oil temp, boost) (P5)
Cheers.
Whats the normal sort of power steps?
Have been offerd an m62 car is all, love my m45 just want more go, think id prefer to go the s/c route than turbo.
Lazza in your early spec & as evo tested & the dyno plot below-
http://www.planetmx5.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=428...
Was it to the spec mentioned in the list? as wondering as later you said changed to 320 injectors? you are running much more power now 250 odd? whats else did you need add/change to achive?
BRP MP62 R2 supercharger (P5)
TDR air/air intercooler (P5)
120mm crank pulley (Mi5 - Nutz)
Adaptronic e420C ecu (P5)
550cc RC Injectors (P5)
AEM Uego O2 Sensor + Gauge (Sausages - Nutz)
FM Twincooler (combined uprated coolant radiator and oil-cooler) (P5)
TDR Insulated Heat Shield (P5)
RB Power Pulse Dual exhaust (P5)
Larini Sport Cat pipe (P5)
Larini exhaust mid-pipe (P5)
RB Ultra ignition wires (P5)
2 Autometer Ultra-Lite gauges (oil temp, boost) (P5)
Cheers.
A standard MP62 non-intercooled setup on a 1.8 should be around 180bhp. You can probably swap pulleys to get it to 190bhp but if you are planning bigger power then don't bother.
To get to the stage my car is at the most expensive upgrades are the intercooler & management. To get to 200bhp or more you really do need an intercooler.
My car as first installed (and tested by Evo) had a standard BRP "R2" setup. That's an MP62, 105mm crank pulley, TDR Air/air Intercooler and JR Powercard for fuelling. There was no ignition timing control so the timing had to be retarded. I added a J&S UltraSafeguard so I could put the timing back to stock and keep it safe from knock. With this setup it made 215bhp on the dyno. To be honest that was a very nice amount of power. Due to the extra weight in a Mk2.5 Sport that's probably equivalent to 200bhp on a Mk1.
It was clear however that the stock injectors were pretty much maxing out at this level so the next step was to swap the JR Powercard for an eManage so I could fit 320cc Supra injectors. This wouldn't have added power but would make it safer. However, a 120mm crank pulley became available so I fitted that at the same time
Like this it was dyno'd at 226bhp but it was limited by the injectors as they just couldn't keep up at top revs. I later replaced them for some 350cc P5 injectors but they didn't make a big difference.
One problem was that I never "tuned" the J&S so it would have been pulling too much tuning in places and still having to pull timing from the midrange due to the onset of knock. If I'd tuned it I'm sure it would have made a fair bit more power and the injectors would have had an easier time too.
The last stage (which I'm still playing with) is to swap out the eManage & 350cc injectors for an Adaptronic & 550cc injectors. It was fitted & tuned at RE:Worx in Portsmouth and made 241.1bhp @ 6500rpm. Assuming the torque stays at the same level to the red-line then it should make a bit over 250bhp I'm still playing with the tuning and I probably will be for a while. On the dyno they did all the power tuning but the transient throttle and low load all needs a fair bit of tweaking as it's harder to tune on a dyno.
So... after all that, my advice would be to choose what sort of final power level you want and just aim for that. Don't go in stages like I did, just go for the best solution for the target power level. Below 200bhp you can get away with Powercard or eManage blue but above it I'd go for at least eManage Ultimate or even better a standalone ecu. I do now have enough headroom in the injectors to go for 270bhp if I wanted - even 300bhp is possible but that's pushing the stock engine too far imo.
If you have any questions about any of that, things I was glad I did, mistakes I made etc. I'm happy to answer them. I'm not really an expert on these matters (you need to talk to the guys on Nutz for that) but I have learned a lot from my experiences and from reading about others.
To get to the stage my car is at the most expensive upgrades are the intercooler & management. To get to 200bhp or more you really do need an intercooler.
My car as first installed (and tested by Evo) had a standard BRP "R2" setup. That's an MP62, 105mm crank pulley, TDR Air/air Intercooler and JR Powercard for fuelling. There was no ignition timing control so the timing had to be retarded. I added a J&S UltraSafeguard so I could put the timing back to stock and keep it safe from knock. With this setup it made 215bhp on the dyno. To be honest that was a very nice amount of power. Due to the extra weight in a Mk2.5 Sport that's probably equivalent to 200bhp on a Mk1.
It was clear however that the stock injectors were pretty much maxing out at this level so the next step was to swap the JR Powercard for an eManage so I could fit 320cc Supra injectors. This wouldn't have added power but would make it safer. However, a 120mm crank pulley became available so I fitted that at the same time
Like this it was dyno'd at 226bhp but it was limited by the injectors as they just couldn't keep up at top revs. I later replaced them for some 350cc P5 injectors but they didn't make a big difference.
One problem was that I never "tuned" the J&S so it would have been pulling too much tuning in places and still having to pull timing from the midrange due to the onset of knock. If I'd tuned it I'm sure it would have made a fair bit more power and the injectors would have had an easier time too.
The last stage (which I'm still playing with) is to swap out the eManage & 350cc injectors for an Adaptronic & 550cc injectors. It was fitted & tuned at RE:Worx in Portsmouth and made 241.1bhp @ 6500rpm. Assuming the torque stays at the same level to the red-line then it should make a bit over 250bhp
I'm still playing with the tuning and I probably will be for a while. On the dyno they did all the power tuning but the transient throttle and low load all needs a fair bit of tweaking as it's harder to tune on a dyno.So... after all that, my advice would be to choose what sort of final power level you want and just aim for that. Don't go in stages like I did, just go for the best solution for the target power level. Below 200bhp you can get away with Powercard or eManage blue but above it I'd go for at least eManage Ultimate or even better a standalone ecu. I do now have enough headroom in the injectors to go for 270bhp if I wanted - even 300bhp is possible but that's pushing the stock engine too far imo.
If you have any questions about any of that, things I was glad I did, mistakes I made etc. I'm happy to answer them. I'm not really an expert on these matters (you need to talk to the guys on Nutz for that) but I have learned a lot from my experiences and from reading about others.
Ah cheers chap, hmmm the power figure after eventially I just don't know, has to be 200+ really I ran 200bhp/ton for years & am after more, so I guess near 250bhp ish would be the target.
My mind just keep going round & round, stick with my m45 & make quicker, or is a nice fm2 near me thats a cracker, get m62 car etc etc.
My mind just keep going round & round, stick with my m45 & make quicker, or is a nice fm2 near me thats a cracker, get m62 car etc etc.
Just to add this into the mix, there are other ways of cooling the charge apart from an air to air intercooler. Water/methanol injection is an option, as is an inline water/air intercooler.
Has anyone in the UK looked into these?
On other FI cars with older designs of engine, water/meth injection has enabled an immediate 20% hike in power just by running more timing and boost in conjunction with it.
Has anyone in the UK looked into these?
On other FI cars with older designs of engine, water/meth injection has enabled an immediate 20% hike in power just by running more timing and boost in conjunction with it.
I think there are a few water/air intercoolers around but they add complexity, are a bit more work to fit and aren't as effective as a big air/air intercooler. They also suffer from heat-soak if you want to use them on track (I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem on the road though).
Water or water/methanol injection is an alternative but again adds a complexity and are another thing that can go wrong. They also don't give the headroom that an intercooler gives i.e. the possible maximum power is more limited - you could fit it to a non-intercooled setup and get 250bhp for example. Of course, you could add water injection to an intercooled setup to get the best of both worlds like Matt (Mi5) on Nutz
Water or water/methanol injection is an alternative but again adds a complexity and are another thing that can go wrong. They also don't give the headroom that an intercooler gives i.e. the possible maximum power is more limited - you could fit it to a non-intercooled setup and get 250bhp for example. Of course, you could add water injection to an intercooled setup to get the best of both worlds like Matt (Mi5) on Nutz
I've read that water/air intercoolers are actually more efficient than air/air intercoolers (think water cooled engine vs air cooled engine) and that heat soak generally isn't a problem with them?
I guess there are always pros and cons though, and a water/air IC certainly is more complicated than an air/air one, but with the water/air intercooler you can add a reservoir, stick some ice in it and theoretically cool the inlet air below ambient at least for a brief period!
Similarly with the meth/injection, from what I hear the effort is certainly worth it in terms of the results, at least on other FI jap engines with ageing design and the EMB has the ability to control a fifth injector, so I would imagine it's not that much of a stretch to inject fuel rather than water/meths to cool the charge and mitigate the need for larger injectors as with the "E-Cool" system on the 190 US WHP coldside M62 that FastForward sell?
I guess there are always pros and cons though, and a water/air IC certainly is more complicated than an air/air one, but with the water/air intercooler you can add a reservoir, stick some ice in it and theoretically cool the inlet air below ambient at least for a brief period!
Similarly with the meth/injection, from what I hear the effort is certainly worth it in terms of the results, at least on other FI jap engines with ageing design and the EMB has the ability to control a fifth injector, so I would imagine it's not that much of a stretch to inject fuel rather than water/meths to cool the charge and mitigate the need for larger injectors as with the "E-Cool" system on the 190 US WHP coldside M62 that FastForward sell?
BRP used to sell the MP62 with the same pulley ratios and hence same target power as mine in S4 or R2 guise. The S4 was water/air intercooled whereas the R2 was air/air intercooled.
The R2 (like mine) was generally regarded as not being very driveable on the road due to the large throttled volume whereas the S4 had a much smaller throttled volume that didn't affect idle or throttle response but wasn't considered suitable for track work as the limited water reservoir meant that the water didn't have time to cool before being pumped back into the air cooler after a bit of track thrashing.
The dual throttle mod developed by P5 has solved the idle & throttle response problems on the a/a ic so now there is no reason not to go for that option.
The R2 (like mine) was generally regarded as not being very driveable on the road due to the large throttled volume whereas the S4 had a much smaller throttled volume that didn't affect idle or throttle response but wasn't considered suitable for track work as the limited water reservoir meant that the water didn't have time to cool before being pumped back into the air cooler after a bit of track thrashing.
The dual throttle mod developed by P5 has solved the idle & throttle response problems on the a/a ic so now there is no reason not to go for that option.
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