MP62 Coldside conversion

[Richyvrlimited]

Thought I'd add my project thread to Pistonheads.

I've had my MK1 for many many years now and it's gone through various guises, this is the next one! I'm converting my Hotside MP62 to a coldside MP62

I've already removed my FMIC, the charger, dual throttles, brackets etc, but this is what I started with:





I've had this kit for quite some time and it's undergone quite a lot of changes. It originally started as an early BRP kit. 4 rib with a PWR A/W IC


Over the years I've converted it to a 6 rib with autotensioner, replaced the A/W IC with a custom A/A IC and broken it a few times :ninja:

1st time, leaking exhaust manifold flambe'd the charger when on track, I heard a 'funny noise' and came into the pits, popped the bonnet and revved the engine, nearly took my eyebrows off! Pulled the charger there and then and continued n/a for the rest of the day

The end result was the cage for the [U]brand new[/U] bearing has melted


and the coupler melted




I'm also pretty sure this overheating was the precourser for....

....2nd time, gearbox cracked and allowed a mm of play on 11 rotor causing it to scrape the soft alui housing. A good friend sacrificed an MP45 from a MINI, made a tool to extract the rotors and swopped the lot over, that was fun!




Cracked gearbox


I've had some fun with this car!

You may also notice I have a 2001 VVT engine in my N/A. The valve stem seals on the original engine went and it was cheaper to buy and fit the new engine myself than to buy new valve stem seals.....!

New engine


So I've decided to go with a coldside. Whilst my setup is properly rapid, there are downsides to running dual throttles, namly the noise, you get whine at whatever throttle position your at above 25%, so I was ether driving really slowly or going hell for leather, this bugged me, but I lived with it.

That is until it broke down and I borrowed my dads MX5 for a week, it was a revelation! a real pleasure to drive despite being a good 40bhp down on my car. What is it you ask?

An M45 coldside! It was all done by a previous owner who pretty much had the FM catalogue fitted suspension wise, had a full racing beat bodykit fitted and then the M45 installed and mapped with an EMB professionally. Barring it breaking down on the drive home from buying it - original tensioner snapped! it's been faultless. Great bit of kit!




Replacing the tensioner
[/QUOTE]

Anyway, last week a nice parcel arrived from the good old US of A! Many thanks to thanks Tom of Fast Forward Superchargers fame who agreed to sell me discrete parts of his kit!

ColdSide manifold and tensioner bracket.






Couldn't help but pull the charger out of the garage with all it's hotside fittings still attached and mock it up on the manifold





That was mid last week. This weekend I spent some of it changing the suspension on my dads car, and the rest of it dismantling my charger and making sure I have everything straight in my head for re-attaching it back to my car!

1st job was to dismantle the bypass actuator. Tom had already warned me that this wasn't a fun job. I found it pretty simple until I came to extracting the roller bearing... Still thinking about that one.

The bypass valve was pretty gummed up though, so taking it all apart will be a useful exercise even if it ends up going back together the same way and I figure out a different mounting option for the actuator.

Bypass valve gone!


Parts laid out in order of re/disasembly


Capped roller bearing came out a piece of cake




Gone!


This one is proving more troublesome


I also started to make a bracket for the underbrace, basically cut a piece of metal out in the shape of that cardboard, I'll drill the holes when the manifold is on the car then I can get it to line up properly!



Found a push to fit connector the correct thread. This will be the MAP source for my ECU



I now need to source some bolts for the two injector holes, which I then need to drill and tap for M8 Fine for my Aquamist WI nozzles.

I also need to drill and tap the top plate for:

1) My IAT sensor
2) Feed for the Brake Booster
3) Feed for the stock 1.8 IAC valve
4) Feed for the FPR & Bypass actuator.

Once I've bought all the required barbs (I only need the FPR source one really) I'll drill and tap on the day as I want it attached to the engine so I can get placement exactly right. I want as clean an install as possible.

Whilst the charger was off the car I also removed the nose and split the charger apart and gave it a good clean, I'm also going to replace the nose seal and once done add fresh supercharger oil. Hopefully this time it won't leak

I'm currently waiting on a 95mm crank pulley to arrive, (just to get me going!) and once I figure out the bypass actuator relocation then I can go ahead and start the install, won't be long now!

[youngsyr]

Very interesting, thanks for the write up!

What psi are you intending to run and what, if anything are you doing about charge cooling?

[mk1salami]

Can't see the pics at work, but if it's the purple one with gold wheels, I absolutely love this car. Looking forward to reading it when I get home.

So besides reducing the noise from the charger on part throttle, what other advantages does the coldside have over hotside?

[Richyvrlimited]

mk1salami said:

Can't see the pics at work, but if it's the purple one with gold wheels, I absolutely love this car. Looking forward to reading it when I get home.

So besides reducing the noise from the charger on part throttle, what other advantages does the coldside have over hotside?

No-where near as nice a car as that one sorry - which incidently has an M45 not an MP62. Mine is green with black wheels.

Throttle response and general drivability improvements.

RE PSI, initially low but rising higher as I get used to the system. I've no set targets.

If you look at the pictures you'll realise there's no-where for a charge cooler to go. The idea of the Coldside is to increase throttle response and drivability. The intake trackt is massively reduced in size, even compared to a standard MX5.

I will be running WI for knock resistance however.

Edited by Richyvrlimited on Tuesday 15th March 10:27

[mk1salami]

Ah I just clocked you're MrSlow :-)

[youngsyr]

Richyvrlimited said:

No-where near as nice a car as that one sorry - which incidently has an M45 not an MP62. Mine is green with black wheels.

Throttle response and general drivability improvements.

RE PSI, initially low but rising higher as I get used to the system. I've no set targets.

If you look at the pictures you'll realise there's no-where for a charge cooler to go. The idea of the Coldside is to increase throttle response and drivability. The intake trackt is massively reduced in size, even compared to a standard MX5.

I will be running WI for knock resistance however.

Edited by Richyvrlimited on Tuesday 15th March 10:27

I'm aware of the lack of space for a water/air or air/air charge cooler on a coldside set up, but there are other ways of cooling the charge, most obviously FFS's E-Cool (fuel injection) system.

However, if you're going to use water injection for knock suppression, have you considered injecting a 50/50 water/(m)ethanol mix to gain both cooling and the knock suppression effects?

Anyway, what water injection system are you going to use - are you going to inject pre or post charger, and if post, into the manifold or have individual jets into the cylinders?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is a topic that I'm very interested in!

[Richyvrlimited]

youngsyr said:

I'm aware of the lack of space for a water/air or air/air charge cooler on a coldside set up, but there are other ways of cooling the charge, most obviously FFS's E-Cool (fuel injection) system.

E-Cool also adds the reuired additional fuel that the positive intake manifold pressure requires. I don't need this as my primary injectors are more than big enough.

Fuel delivers far less cooling than water, and doesn't provide anywhere near as much det resistance as water does.

youngsyr said:

However, if you're going to use water injection for knock suppression, have you considered injecting a 50/50 water/ethanol mix to gain both cooling and the knock suppression effects?

Anyway, what water injection system are you going to use - are you going to inject pre or post charger, and if post, into the manifold or have individual jets into the cylinders?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is a topic that I'm very interested in!

I'm not messing with (I presume you mean methanol, not ethanol 1) methanol, from what I've read the gains are small if at all and then there's sourcing a supply. Water is far easier to find

I'll be injecting into the manifold, I'm wary of blocked jets with individual runner injection, and I also have very little in the way of 'individual runners' to mount the injectors.

On Toms advice I'll be fitting 2 WI nozzles in the e-cool fuel injector locations. One Nozzle x2 the size of the other. This should provide the most optimum water distribution in the manifold/to each cylinder.

I'm semi tempted to inject pre-charger aswell, but I'm wary of washing away the grease in the rotors roller bearings at the back of the case. I have no graphite coating left to speak of so I'm not worried about loosing that

It's a simple on/off Aquamist 1s kit for now. If I ever have the spare funds i'll either try to source a HSV (now discontinued), and upgrade my ECU to be able to control the HSV independantly, or I'll upgrade the Aquamist kit to one of the new types which vary the pump speed to control water flow (I think).

1 Ethanol is an interesting topic, it's a damn shame there are only 10 or so Ethanol petrol stations (aka BioPetrol aka E85) in the whole of the UK. The results from the guys in the states running E85 are very impressive. it burns much much cooler and is far more detonation resistant compared to straight petrol, IIRC the RON equivilent is something like 115 - 120

Edited by Richyvrlimited on Tuesday 15th March 11:32

Edited by Richyvrlimited on Tuesday 15th March 11:32

[youngsyr]

Richyvrlimited said:

youngsyr said:

I'm aware of the lack of space for a water/air or air/air charge cooler on a coldside set up, but there are other ways of cooling the charge, most obviously FFS's E-Cool (fuel injection) system.

E-Cool also adds the reuired additional fuel that the positive intake manifold pressure requires. I don't need this as my primary injectors are more than big enough.

Fuel delivers far less cooling than water, and doesn't provide anywhere near as much det resistance as water does.

youngsyr said:

However, if you're going to use water injection for knock suppression, have you considered injecting a 50/50 water/ethanol mix to gain both cooling and the knock suppression effects?

Anyway, what water injection system are you going to use - are you going to inject pre or post charger, and if post, into the manifold or have individual jets into the cylinders?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is a topic that I'm very interested in!

I'm not messing with (I presume you mean methanol, not ethanol 1) methanol, from what I've read the gains are small if at all and then there's sourcing a supply. Water is far easier to find

I'll be injecting into the manifold, I'm wary of blocked jets with individual runner injection, and I also have very little in the way of 'individual runners' to mount the injectors.

On Toms advice I'll be fitting 2 WI nozzles in the e-cool fuel injector locations. One Nozzle x2 the size of the other. This should provide the most optimum water distribution in the manifold/to each cylinder.

I'm semi tempted to inject pre-charger aswell, but I'm wary of washing away the grease in the rotors roller bearings at the back of the case. I have no graphite coating left to speak of so I'm not worried about loosing that

It's a simple on/off Aquamist 1s kit for now. If I ever have the spare funds i'll either try to source a HSV (now discontinued), and upgrade my ECU to be able to control the HSV independantly, or I'll upgrade the Aquamist kit to one of the new types which vary the pump speed to control water flow (I think).

1 Ethanol is an interesting topic, it's a damn shame there are only 10 or so Ethanol petrol stations (aka BioPetrol aka E85) in the whole of the UK. The results from the guys in the states running E85 are very impressive. it burns much much cooler and is far more detonation resistant compared to straight petrol, IIRC the RON equivilent is something like 115 - 120

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Is methanol that hard to get hold of? I know my brother has considered buying it, and if you go for pretty large quantities (100+L a time) you can have it delivered. Storing it and handling it are another story though! It does have the huge benefit of being able to be added to the fuel tank and using the oem fuel system to deliver it to the engine though. Evo owners have tried this with great success using a 1/10 meth/gas mix.

It seems that E85 is much better though from people's results in Evos, and is pretty much the holy grail for FI engines. Unfortunately as you say it's very difficult to get hold of unless you have the great fortune to live on top of one of the very few places that sell it. Adding the meth to the tank is a diy way of trying to get the same benefits. I guess you both water injection and alcohol injection have their drawbacks though, it's just a case of picking your poison!

It seems that some cooling system is necessary with the coldsides though - Bill at FFS reckons you need to pull around 1 degree of peak timing per psi of boost on 93 AKA fuel (around 99 RON) and if each degree of timing is around 2 bhp of power at the redline, then it's clear to see that cooling the charge sufficiently for you to maintain near to oem timing can add a huge amount of power to a coldside set up.

Will you be monitoring your exhaust temps/AFRs at all?

Edited by youngsyr on Tuesday 15th March 11:51

[Richyvrlimited]

youngsyr said:

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Is methanol that hard to get hold of? I know my brother has considered buying it, and if you go for pretty large quantities (100+L a time) you can have it delivered. Storing it and handling it are another story though! It does have the huge benefit of being able to be added to the fuel tank and using the oem fuel system to deliver it to the engine though. Evo owners have tried this with great success using a 1/10 meth/gas mix.

In comparision to getting hold of water, it's exceedingly difficult The whole aim of this exercise is an easier to live with car, worry about and needing to purchase methanol doesn't really fit

youngsyr said:

It seems that some cooling system is necessary with the coldsides though - Bill at FFS reckons you need to pull around 1 degree of peak timing per psi of boost on 93 AKA fuel (around 99 RON) and if each degree of timing is around 2 bhp of power at the redline, then it's clear to see that cooling the charge sufficiently for you to maintain near to oem timing can add a huge amount of power to a coldside set up.

Will you be monitoring your exhaust temps/AFRs at all?

Agreed some cooling will be required, hence the WI, although at first and with a 95mm crank pulley (60mm nose) I'm not exactly spinning the blower hard, so I'm not worried about getting the WI going from the get go. Once I start increasing the blower speed I'll add the WI into the loop.

As an example my dads car runs with a pulley ratio of nearly 2 with no WI, granted it's an M45, but at those speeds and for it's size it's not that efficient, my charger is considerably bigger and will be spun much slower with a pulley ratio of 1.58. We'll see what happens anyway

I will most definately be monitoring AFR's, I have an LC-1 permanetly installed - and always have done.

I run a standalone ECU, retarding 1deg is pretty meaningless to me, I ask, 1 degree from what?

I'll run as much timing as is required to avoid knock, what that compares to with a 'normal' FFS installation I've not a clue unfortunately

[youngsyr]

Presumably your LC-1 is after the collector in the exhaust though - how will you know you've got even distribution of water/heat among the cylinders?

Do you have any way of monitoring engine knock?

[Richyvrlimited]

youngsyr said:

Presumably your LC-1 is after the collector in the exhaust though - how will you know you've got even distribution of water/heat among the cylinders?

Do you have any way of monitoring engine knock?

Very true it's post collector so an average AFR.

I'm just hoping that what Tom say pans out the same with WI i.e. districution will be even with 2 WI nozzles 1 being x2 bigger than the other.

I have knock detection both electronic, and when I tune on the road I use detcans. I'll be ensuring I get no knock, so if distribution isn't even I'll just be sacrificing the ability to run a bit more advance, I won't be risking the safety of the engine.

[youngsyr]

Richyvrlimited said:

youngsyr said:

Presumably your LC-1 is after the collector in the exhaust though - how will you know you've got even distribution of water/heat among the cylinders?

Do you have any way of monitoring engine knock?

Very true it's post collector so an average AFR.

I'm just hoping that what Tom say pans out the same with WI i.e. districution will be even with 2 WI nozzles 1 being x2 bigger than the other.

I have knock detection both electronic, and when I tune on the road I use detcans. I'll be ensuring I get no knock, so if distribution isn't even I'll just be sacrificing the ability to run a bit more advance, I won't be risking the safety of the engine.

Seems like you've got it covered then. Short of having individual lambda/temp sensors in the exhaust runners, I'm not sure what else you can really do.

It's a shame that the coldside cooling methods are fraught with such complexity, but then I guess you rarely get to have your cake and eat it.