A Novice looking at Ladies watches.
Discussion
Hello all,
Firstly, I have to confess I know almost nothing bout watches. My daily is a Samsung Gear 3 and the item that I have to consider as my "dress watch" (such as it is) is an early 2000's Citizen Eco Drive E811-K001218 that I bought when I first started work. So with this level of almost obliviousness to all things Horological (besides knowing what I like the look of but can never quite seem to get round to buying), I've decided that for Christmas this year, I thought to give my Fiancée a Must De Cartier Tank watch. I know these aren't as well regarded as the full Cartier thing, and that they're probably a little looked down on, being Vermeil. My question is what are your thoughts? Is it worth getting one that's being sold as "needs a service" for £800, or would the cost of said service likely make it not worth the bother and I should just find one at the £1,300 mark that's already been done. Also with regards to servicing in general, I have no idea who is a good or bad contact to send even something as humdrum and my Citizen into for a service.
Any pointers or advice gratefully received.
Firstly, I have to confess I know almost nothing bout watches. My daily is a Samsung Gear 3 and the item that I have to consider as my "dress watch" (such as it is) is an early 2000's Citizen Eco Drive E811-K001218 that I bought when I first started work. So with this level of almost obliviousness to all things Horological (besides knowing what I like the look of but can never quite seem to get round to buying), I've decided that for Christmas this year, I thought to give my Fiancée a Must De Cartier Tank watch. I know these aren't as well regarded as the full Cartier thing, and that they're probably a little looked down on, being Vermeil. My question is what are your thoughts? Is it worth getting one that's being sold as "needs a service" for £800, or would the cost of said service likely make it not worth the bother and I should just find one at the £1,300 mark that's already been done. Also with regards to servicing in general, I have no idea who is a good or bad contact to send even something as humdrum and my Citizen into for a service.
Any pointers or advice gratefully received.
I think she'd prefer the manual wound mechanism, she's quite traditional with her jewellery, her engagement ring for example is an antique Emerald set in an Art Deco style. The examples I've seen have either been about £800 with the caveat "needs a service" or about £1,300 to £1,500 with nothing stated beyond the price and pictures. My quandary is if its worth getting the cheaper one serviced (if for example it's only £200ish to do so) or just ignore anything that suggests it's less than perfect running condition.
Vsix and Vtec said:
I think she'd prefer the manual wound mechanism, she's quite traditional with her jewellery, her engagement ring for example is an antique Emerald set in an Art Deco style. The examples I've seen have either been about £800 with the caveat "needs a service" or about £1,300 to £1,500 with nothing stated beyond the price and pictures. My quandary is if its worth getting the cheaper one serviced (if for example it's only £200ish to do so) or just ignore anything that suggests it's less than perfect running condition.
The only way that you know a manual/automatic watch needs a service (by and large) is when it stops - and you're not going to buy a watch that's not running. It might need regulating if it's running slow or fast - which is a bit different. For the more expensive watches on your search, I'd want to ask the seller when it was last serviced - and ask for proof of that before purchase.
"Needs a service" is very often code for "knackered".
It's annoying, but watch vendors do it all the time. Others to watch for are:
"Untested" which is code for "Tested & found to be faulty"
and
"Spares or repairs" which is code for "It was knackered when I bought it, but I was able to salvage the parts I needed, now I'm moving it on again with my old knackered bits in."
And lastly:
"Professionally restored dial" is code for "I used crayons. In the dark, after a skinfull at my local pub."
It's annoying, but watch vendors do it all the time. Others to watch for are:
"Untested" which is code for "Tested & found to be faulty"
and
"Spares or repairs" which is code for "It was knackered when I bought it, but I was able to salvage the parts I needed, now I'm moving it on again with my old knackered bits in."
And lastly:
"Professionally restored dial" is code for "I used crayons. In the dark, after a skinfull at my local pub."
Edited by BrokenSkunk on Thursday 3rd August 09:11
BrokenSkunk said:
"Needs a service" is very often code for "knackered".
It's annoying, but watch vendors do it all the time. Others to watch for are:
"Untested" which is code for "Tested & found to be faulty"
and
"Spares or repairs" which is code for "It was knackered when I bought it, but I was able to salvage the parts I needed, now I'm moving it on again with my old knackered bits in."
And lastly:
"Professionally restored dial" is code for "I used crayons. In the dark, after a skinfull at my local pub."
It's annoying, but watch vendors do it all the time. Others to watch for are:
"Untested" which is code for "Tested & found to be faulty"
and
"Spares or repairs" which is code for "It was knackered when I bought it, but I was able to salvage the parts I needed, now I'm moving it on again with my old knackered bits in."
And lastly:
"Professionally restored dial" is code for "I used crayons. In the dark, after a skinfull at my local pub."
I know there is obviously some artistic licence in your japery, but it's useful to know these terms aren't anything meaningful. I suppose these people selling sub £1k items are mostly just moving on jewellery at best rather than an actual timepiece. It's worth knowing not to bother with them if that's your general advice. I'm not really flush enough to waste the better part of a grand on what for all intents and purposes is nothing more than a broken ornament, not unless the service costs are less than the cost of a fully functioning one.I'm not a watch maker, just a collector. So the below is my potentially flawed understanding.
Mechanical watches should be serviced about every 8 to 12 years. Each pivot has a shaped end that turns in a either a ruby cup (a jewel) or a metal bearing. There's a tiny drop of oil used to prevent wear and over time the lighter thiungamebobs in the oil evaporate leaving a congealed mass.
If the watch isn't run as the oils dry the congealed mass causes drag and the watch starts to run slow. It may not start easily. The "tick" will be quiet. As it's run the dried up oil is pushed away from the moving part and it runs fast.
Continued use of the watch at this point will cause wear to the bearings. It's not a quick process, but it will happen. If they're not too worn a really good watchmaker will be able to refinish the shafts, shaving off 1/1000th of a millimeter. He'll fit new jewels, or reset the existing ones.
In reality the statement "Needs a service" could mean anything from "It's got no problems, I'm just covering my backside" through "It's been a few years since it was last done" to "it's not running properly, or at all". It could have been dropped. It might have just started playing up, or it could have been running badly for years. You just don't know.
You could ask what makes them think it needs a service, but you'll never know whether to take the reply with a pinch of salt, or a gritting lorry's load of the stuff.
As a very recent personal example, I'm wearing a 1952 Omega that I bought a few weeks ago. It cost me £230 - a bargain. Here's the seller's description:
When buying a second hand mechanical watch that's ten or more years old, it's wise to assume that it will need a service. At an independent watchmaker, budget £100 to 150 for a simple watch with no complications. Better to assume it's needed and not need the extra money, than it is to not assume it's needed and not have allocated the money.
And all of that is after you've decided that the watch your looking at is original. There's an awful lot of tat out there. Not just fakes, but watches cobbled together from parts and with repainted dials. The good news for you is that the womens watch market is worth significantly less than the gents, so most of the franken-watch makers concentrate on gents pieces.
TLDR: Buying second hand can be rewarding, but it is a gamble. Weigh the cost saving of going second hand against the potential pain and decide.
Or buy second hand from a bricks and mortar store, you'll pay more but you'll get a guarantee.
Mechanical watches should be serviced about every 8 to 12 years. Each pivot has a shaped end that turns in a either a ruby cup (a jewel) or a metal bearing. There's a tiny drop of oil used to prevent wear and over time the lighter thiungamebobs in the oil evaporate leaving a congealed mass.
If the watch isn't run as the oils dry the congealed mass causes drag and the watch starts to run slow. It may not start easily. The "tick" will be quiet. As it's run the dried up oil is pushed away from the moving part and it runs fast.
Continued use of the watch at this point will cause wear to the bearings. It's not a quick process, but it will happen. If they're not too worn a really good watchmaker will be able to refinish the shafts, shaving off 1/1000th of a millimeter. He'll fit new jewels, or reset the existing ones.
In reality the statement "Needs a service" could mean anything from "It's got no problems, I'm just covering my backside" through "It's been a few years since it was last done" to "it's not running properly, or at all". It could have been dropped. It might have just started playing up, or it could have been running badly for years. You just don't know.
You could ask what makes them think it needs a service, but you'll never know whether to take the reply with a pinch of salt, or a gritting lorry's load of the stuff.
As a very recent personal example, I'm wearing a 1952 Omega that I bought a few weeks ago. It cost me £230 - a bargain. Here's the seller's description:
ebay seller said:
Ticking, pin to change dial is a bit stiff , will definitely need attention
Sold as is and capable of ticking . Not professionally tested
As soon as I tried to set and wind the watch the crown and it's spindle came completely out of the case. It couldn't be wound at all and therefore wouldn't tick. I spent another £180 on parts and a full service.Sold as is and capable of ticking . Not professionally tested
When buying a second hand mechanical watch that's ten or more years old, it's wise to assume that it will need a service. At an independent watchmaker, budget £100 to 150 for a simple watch with no complications. Better to assume it's needed and not need the extra money, than it is to not assume it's needed and not have allocated the money.
And all of that is after you've decided that the watch your looking at is original. There's an awful lot of tat out there. Not just fakes, but watches cobbled together from parts and with repainted dials. The good news for you is that the womens watch market is worth significantly less than the gents, so most of the franken-watch makers concentrate on gents pieces.
TLDR: Buying second hand can be rewarding, but it is a gamble. Weigh the cost saving of going second hand against the potential pain and decide.
Or buy second hand from a bricks and mortar store, you'll pay more but you'll get a guarantee.
Thank you very much for your input, this guides my way forward quite well. Service costs are more reasonable than I anticipated, being totally foreign to me I had no idea where to even ballpark the cost.
I think, given my cautious nature, I'm going to start paying more attention to proper retailers rather than Ebay. Thank you again for your invaluable knowledge!
I think, given my cautious nature, I'm going to start paying more attention to proper retailers rather than Ebay. Thank you again for your invaluable knowledge!
You're welcome. (I was bored.)
Avoiding ebay is probably wise. Six or seven years ago it was a great place to buy. The majority of watches on there were sold by private sellers and were "honest" purchases, mostly you got what you expected.
Now, the opposite is true. The second hand watch market is thriving. Prices for known brands are silly. Private sellers on ebay are a tiny minority, the market has attracted a lot of people who are clearly buying and selling for profit. Their value add and profit magin is in tarting up and/or misrepresenting what they are selling. The good watches are still there, but often at ridiculuous speculative prices. It's become a minefield.
Other (better) places to look are:
Chrono24 - It's just a market place like ebay. So it is filled with the same tarted up tat. But it does attract more reputable bricks and mortar dealers. Use streetview to work out who you're dealing with.
Burlington Arcade - Top notch shops, top notch prices.
Hackett Watches - Dominic used to be a regular here. Haven't seen him for ages. I think his stuff will be over your budget.
Watchfinder - high prices again.
Birthyearwatches - Scott who runs this is a regular poster on another watch forum. The watches are very honestly described.
The lanes Brighton - You'll never know what you'll find, except that it's unlikely to be a bargin.
Fellows auction house - They have regular auctions, dings dents and defects tend to be over emphasized, but be aware that this is a great place for people to dispose of problem watches with no comeback. I have an £1800 1970's quartz watch from fellows that currently doesn't go and is so notoriously difficult to work on that no one want's to touch it. But that is another story...
Avoiding ebay is probably wise. Six or seven years ago it was a great place to buy. The majority of watches on there were sold by private sellers and were "honest" purchases, mostly you got what you expected.
Now, the opposite is true. The second hand watch market is thriving. Prices for known brands are silly. Private sellers on ebay are a tiny minority, the market has attracted a lot of people who are clearly buying and selling for profit. Their value add and profit magin is in tarting up and/or misrepresenting what they are selling. The good watches are still there, but often at ridiculuous speculative prices. It's become a minefield.
Other (better) places to look are:
Chrono24 - It's just a market place like ebay. So it is filled with the same tarted up tat. But it does attract more reputable bricks and mortar dealers. Use streetview to work out who you're dealing with.
Burlington Arcade - Top notch shops, top notch prices.
Hackett Watches - Dominic used to be a regular here. Haven't seen him for ages. I think his stuff will be over your budget.
Watchfinder - high prices again.
Birthyearwatches - Scott who runs this is a regular poster on another watch forum. The watches are very honestly described.
The lanes Brighton - You'll never know what you'll find, except that it's unlikely to be a bargin.
Fellows auction house - They have regular auctions, dings dents and defects tend to be over emphasized, but be aware that this is a great place for people to dispose of problem watches with no comeback. I have an £1800 1970's quartz watch from fellows that currently doesn't go and is so notoriously difficult to work on that no one want's to touch it. But that is another story...
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