I've just ordered a watch from www.debaufre.com.....
Discussion
I've just ordered a watch from www.debaufre.com . I have been stalking them for some time and checking the US forums and they get good press. I have ordered the ocean 1 in 42mm, to be honest I would love to buy a rolex submariner but the wife a kids are higher in the financial pecking order than dad and I dont want a fake. They also sell other interesting watches the Le mans ones look nice. I wonder, maybe next month...........
I've taken a look at their website. What I can see is a bunch of blatant copies of Bell & Ross, Rolex, IWC, Heuer and Seiko 'classic' designs, with just enough change from the original design to avoid legal trouble (that said, I'm not sure how long a design copyright can be held, and Rolex have been making the Submariner for more than 50 years).
Taking the Ocean 1 as an example, which is quite obviously a slightly-modified Rolex Submariner, they've even got one with a green bezel as per the LV Rolex produced to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Sub. It has identical dial design, bezel design, crown and crown guards, pearl insert in the bezel, cyclops date mag, and even the hour hand has the 'Mercedes' shape at the end. They refer to the bracelet as an 'Oyster bracelet' which is a Rolex design, however their version has inferior split pins rather than screws to secure the links. The differences from the Rolex Submariner are minor - the lugs are rounded off, the bracelet uses pins, the bezel has sharper 'spikes', the hour hand widens from the centre to the 'Mercedes' symbol, and the first link in the bracelet is split. Functionally, the caseback doesn't have a Rolex splined Oyster case - which would be instant copyright infringement - but a 6-pin screw case.
So it doesn't sound like I'm picking on one watch, the Nav-B Classic is the IWC Big Pilot's Watch. The case design is identical, the very characteristic large crown is identical, the hands are the same shape, the leather strap has two large rivets each side, just like the IWC. Though Débaufré couldn't replicate the automatic movement with date and power-reserve indicator, they put a small seconds dial on instead. It's little details like the triangle with two dots above it at the 12 o'clock position which is found on the IWC and not common elsewhere, that make it clear what this watch is a copy of.
At the risk of causing an argument, I'll be straight and to the point here - I don't like them - I don't like the 'how close to a replica can we get before we get sued' approach. If you love the Sub shape but can't afford a genuine Rolex, then the best replicas on the market are a virtually identical copy in all respects except the movement. And the good reps use the same movements as the Débaufré anyway, and more realistically priced. A 'perfect' rep will set you back about $250 and will be identical except for the movement, which will be the same ETA 2824-2 anyway. And you won't get people saying 'nice Rolex', taking a closer look and then saying 'oh it's not a Rolex'. Even if the image of the watch means nothing to you, IMO the bottom line is that Débaufré are very overpriced for what they are offering. Their Sub copy, in 316 stainless and a 2824 ETA movement, should be around $250. The very best replicas ('fakes', if you prefer) cost around this much. Instead, Débaufré, by pretending to be 100% legit and not 'counterfeit', because they aren't putting someone else's name on the dial, are charging $442 for their Sub.
Doing a bit of research, quite clearly Rolex aren't happy with the people behind Débaufré, and it's not just Rolex. The Débaufré front page shows their offerings - not one original design, but each separate watch is one of the most-recognisable watches of another manufacturer. Why did I say 'people behind Débaufré' ? - well, a couple of years ago, they were sold as 'Steinhart' watches. Steinhart still sells in the rest of the world, but in the USA there was another company named 'Steinhart' who sued, won, and now the watches are called 'Débaufré' in the USA. The URL www.steinhartwatches.com redirects to Débaufré. Elsewhere, the same watches are sold by a company called Robert (for example, the green LV Sub copy is sold by Robert for $288, a much more realistic price). Whether Robert is Steinhart as well is hard to tell.
Basically, from what I can see, all these watches are manufactured by one firm who only sell to trade. The base pieces are made with dial and caseback printing to order, so you can order the watches with your name on the front, and then sell them on for whatever the market will withstand. It appears Robert don't do the big marketing thing and aren't selling high - whereas in the USA, Débaufré have gone for the big marketing effort, flashy website, and just the very-recognisable lookalike watches, and hiked the price up to $450 or thereabouts. Both Steinhart and Débaufré and a couple of other firms selling the same watches appear to be owned by Elbl & Steinhart GbR, a 'wholesale and trade' company.
However the ultimate manufacturer of these watches, which is always claimed to be in Switzerland, isn't easy to find. I haven't had much luck trying to find them (this whole thing intrigued me so I've done some searching). The marketers make a big fuss about the ETA movement and that it is 'Swiss'... however there is no proof that it is, in fact, a real Swiss ETA movement (recent monopoly lawsuits in Switzerland have resulted in the Swatch Group, who own ETA, having to scale back sale of entire finished movements to watch firms because they were wiping out the market for lower-priced in-house movements). It is widely known that exact replicas of ETA movements are made in China, both by ETA-owned factories (for watches not to be sold outside China), and the 'fake' replica factories who make fake movements to go in their fake watches, which are virtually identical to the real thing anyway.
So, given that you could purchase a watch, unscrew the back, get your loupe out and look for the markings on the movement and find 'ETA' and '2824' - and of course recognise the ETA movement by its shape (it's a very widely used and popular movement, reliable and a 'workhorse') - but how the hell are you going to know whether the movement was made in Switzerland or China? The Chinese version is a hell of a lot cheaper. Total cost of materials is then a lot less... and so on top of this you're paying for basically marketing and branding. Forget the Rolex for a moment - they have their own movements - but take the IWC Big Pilot example instead. IWC actually *DO* use ETA movements, finished to a higher grade. What are you paying for? In the IWC, mostly the name - the cost of components will be higher than the Steinhart because they will definitely be Swiss-made ETAs and there's also some bespoke modification of the movement - but the cost of the watch is a LOT higher. In the case of the Steinhart - well it makes even less sense. The cost of materials is low, less than $100. Their marketing is slick (nice flashy website) but IMO the value of their 'name' on the watch is negative... it looks just like a IWC or a Rolex but it has a different brandname - and for brand-obsessed people, this is worse than no brand at all. I'd be more inclined to wear one if the dial had no branding at all, other than depth rating.
Philosophically I don't like the Steinhart-style knockoffs of famous high-profile models of fine top-end watches - personally I'd rather have an identical set of parts (ETA movement, stainless case and bracelet, sapphire crystal and some waterproofing) with someone's own design; creativity over marketing.
But regardless of the difference in philosophical opinion, I think you paid too much. Débaufré have gone for the big marketing effort and high price, but the watch is the same mass-produced item available to resellers - other resellers offer the same item for less (as per the Robert example, I'm sure there are more).
I don't intend this post as a flame or insult. If I was after a classic diver's watch with mechanical movement and credibility, I'd pick a Seiko Monster every time. I have an Orange Monster, perhaps the most well-known, and recently lost an eBay auction for a Yellow Monster (that got bid up to silly money). However, everyone likes different things and that's fine with me. But I think Débaufré are shockingly poor value i.e. overpriced. If it's well built and lasts as long as a Rolex Sub then in some respects it doesn't matter - but isn't that why you bought the watch - because it looks like a Sub? If you got a great new job and suddenly your monthly disposable income was more than £5k, would you keep the knockoff or would you buy a genuine Submariner? Honest question.
Taking the Ocean 1 as an example, which is quite obviously a slightly-modified Rolex Submariner, they've even got one with a green bezel as per the LV Rolex produced to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Sub. It has identical dial design, bezel design, crown and crown guards, pearl insert in the bezel, cyclops date mag, and even the hour hand has the 'Mercedes' shape at the end. They refer to the bracelet as an 'Oyster bracelet' which is a Rolex design, however their version has inferior split pins rather than screws to secure the links. The differences from the Rolex Submariner are minor - the lugs are rounded off, the bracelet uses pins, the bezel has sharper 'spikes', the hour hand widens from the centre to the 'Mercedes' symbol, and the first link in the bracelet is split. Functionally, the caseback doesn't have a Rolex splined Oyster case - which would be instant copyright infringement - but a 6-pin screw case.
So it doesn't sound like I'm picking on one watch, the Nav-B Classic is the IWC Big Pilot's Watch. The case design is identical, the very characteristic large crown is identical, the hands are the same shape, the leather strap has two large rivets each side, just like the IWC. Though Débaufré couldn't replicate the automatic movement with date and power-reserve indicator, they put a small seconds dial on instead. It's little details like the triangle with two dots above it at the 12 o'clock position which is found on the IWC and not common elsewhere, that make it clear what this watch is a copy of.
At the risk of causing an argument, I'll be straight and to the point here - I don't like them - I don't like the 'how close to a replica can we get before we get sued' approach. If you love the Sub shape but can't afford a genuine Rolex, then the best replicas on the market are a virtually identical copy in all respects except the movement. And the good reps use the same movements as the Débaufré anyway, and more realistically priced. A 'perfect' rep will set you back about $250 and will be identical except for the movement, which will be the same ETA 2824-2 anyway. And you won't get people saying 'nice Rolex', taking a closer look and then saying 'oh it's not a Rolex'. Even if the image of the watch means nothing to you, IMO the bottom line is that Débaufré are very overpriced for what they are offering. Their Sub copy, in 316 stainless and a 2824 ETA movement, should be around $250. The very best replicas ('fakes', if you prefer) cost around this much. Instead, Débaufré, by pretending to be 100% legit and not 'counterfeit', because they aren't putting someone else's name on the dial, are charging $442 for their Sub.
Doing a bit of research, quite clearly Rolex aren't happy with the people behind Débaufré, and it's not just Rolex. The Débaufré front page shows their offerings - not one original design, but each separate watch is one of the most-recognisable watches of another manufacturer. Why did I say 'people behind Débaufré' ? - well, a couple of years ago, they were sold as 'Steinhart' watches. Steinhart still sells in the rest of the world, but in the USA there was another company named 'Steinhart' who sued, won, and now the watches are called 'Débaufré' in the USA. The URL www.steinhartwatches.com redirects to Débaufré. Elsewhere, the same watches are sold by a company called Robert (for example, the green LV Sub copy is sold by Robert for $288, a much more realistic price). Whether Robert is Steinhart as well is hard to tell.
Basically, from what I can see, all these watches are manufactured by one firm who only sell to trade. The base pieces are made with dial and caseback printing to order, so you can order the watches with your name on the front, and then sell them on for whatever the market will withstand. It appears Robert don't do the big marketing thing and aren't selling high - whereas in the USA, Débaufré have gone for the big marketing effort, flashy website, and just the very-recognisable lookalike watches, and hiked the price up to $450 or thereabouts. Both Steinhart and Débaufré and a couple of other firms selling the same watches appear to be owned by Elbl & Steinhart GbR, a 'wholesale and trade' company.
However the ultimate manufacturer of these watches, which is always claimed to be in Switzerland, isn't easy to find. I haven't had much luck trying to find them (this whole thing intrigued me so I've done some searching). The marketers make a big fuss about the ETA movement and that it is 'Swiss'... however there is no proof that it is, in fact, a real Swiss ETA movement (recent monopoly lawsuits in Switzerland have resulted in the Swatch Group, who own ETA, having to scale back sale of entire finished movements to watch firms because they were wiping out the market for lower-priced in-house movements). It is widely known that exact replicas of ETA movements are made in China, both by ETA-owned factories (for watches not to be sold outside China), and the 'fake' replica factories who make fake movements to go in their fake watches, which are virtually identical to the real thing anyway.
So, given that you could purchase a watch, unscrew the back, get your loupe out and look for the markings on the movement and find 'ETA' and '2824' - and of course recognise the ETA movement by its shape (it's a very widely used and popular movement, reliable and a 'workhorse') - but how the hell are you going to know whether the movement was made in Switzerland or China? The Chinese version is a hell of a lot cheaper. Total cost of materials is then a lot less... and so on top of this you're paying for basically marketing and branding. Forget the Rolex for a moment - they have their own movements - but take the IWC Big Pilot example instead. IWC actually *DO* use ETA movements, finished to a higher grade. What are you paying for? In the IWC, mostly the name - the cost of components will be higher than the Steinhart because they will definitely be Swiss-made ETAs and there's also some bespoke modification of the movement - but the cost of the watch is a LOT higher. In the case of the Steinhart - well it makes even less sense. The cost of materials is low, less than $100. Their marketing is slick (nice flashy website) but IMO the value of their 'name' on the watch is negative... it looks just like a IWC or a Rolex but it has a different brandname - and for brand-obsessed people, this is worse than no brand at all. I'd be more inclined to wear one if the dial had no branding at all, other than depth rating.
Philosophically I don't like the Steinhart-style knockoffs of famous high-profile models of fine top-end watches - personally I'd rather have an identical set of parts (ETA movement, stainless case and bracelet, sapphire crystal and some waterproofing) with someone's own design; creativity over marketing.
But regardless of the difference in philosophical opinion, I think you paid too much. Débaufré have gone for the big marketing effort and high price, but the watch is the same mass-produced item available to resellers - other resellers offer the same item for less (as per the Robert example, I'm sure there are more).
I don't intend this post as a flame or insult. If I was after a classic diver's watch with mechanical movement and credibility, I'd pick a Seiko Monster every time. I have an Orange Monster, perhaps the most well-known, and recently lost an eBay auction for a Yellow Monster (that got bid up to silly money). However, everyone likes different things and that's fine with me. But I think Débaufré are shockingly poor value i.e. overpriced. If it's well built and lasts as long as a Rolex Sub then in some respects it doesn't matter - but isn't that why you bought the watch - because it looks like a Sub? If you got a great new job and suddenly your monthly disposable income was more than £5k, would you keep the knockoff or would you buy a genuine Submariner? Honest question.
Over the past six months I've purchased four Debaufre watches; three for myself and one for a gift to my cousin. I got a 48mm Nav-B hand-wind, an Ocean-1 blue/blue and a GMT-2 (black dial) for myself, and I got another Ocean-1 for my cousin. Two of them I paid their full price, and the other two were significantly discounted on S&D special promotions.
I'm 55 years old, don't give a damn what other people think of me, and when I wear a watch I wear it because I like to look at it myself, not because I want other people to look at it. I couldn't care less about having a well-finished and shiny Swiss movement inside the watch because I never intend to look inside the watch. I don't care if it was intended to look just like a Rolex or an IWC any more than I care if my dog is an expensive rare-breed or a mutt.
These are, to my mind, very nice watches and I like them very much. So if anyone wants to buy some of my old Seiko, Timex, Candido, or Swatch watches you're welcome to them. But I'll be keeping my vintage 1971 Omega Geneve hand-wind, thank you very much.
I'm 55 years old, don't give a damn what other people think of me, and when I wear a watch I wear it because I like to look at it myself, not because I want other people to look at it. I couldn't care less about having a well-finished and shiny Swiss movement inside the watch because I never intend to look inside the watch. I don't care if it was intended to look just like a Rolex or an IWC any more than I care if my dog is an expensive rare-breed or a mutt.
These are, to my mind, very nice watches and I like them very much. So if anyone wants to buy some of my old Seiko, Timex, Candido, or Swatch watches you're welcome to them. But I'll be keeping my vintage 1971 Omega Geneve hand-wind, thank you very much.
cyberface said:
So it doesn't sound like I'm picking on one watch, the Nav-B Classic is the IWC Big Pilot's Watch. The case design is identical, the very characteristic large crown is identical, the hands are the same shape, the leather strap has two large rivets each side, just like the IWC. Though Débaufré couldn't replicate the automatic movement with date and power-reserve indicator, they put a small seconds dial on instead. It's little details like the triangle with two dots above it at the 12 o'clock position which is found on the IWC and not common elsewhere, that make it clear what this watch is a copy of.
I agree with some of the rest (ocean 1 and gmt's are Rolex copies, le mans is a monaco copy), but the nav-b is a hommage to the old B-Uhr watches, not the big pilot. The onion crown and dial design (including the triangle with two dots) are all taken from that. The B-Uhr's came in two dial designs (type A and B?) and both have been replicated by Steinhart/Debaufre's automatic version. The handwind version with the unitas has the little sub seconds at 9 because that is how the movement works (see Panerai, or Stowa mo).IWC did make B-Uhren's, but so did Stowa, Laco and Wempe so I don't think that they should be the only company allowed to make hommages or replicas of it (witch is what the Big Pilot is, really).
And come on, the stuff about sourcing movements from China is just speculation. Yes eta's are harder to get hold off, but there are still many smaller watch companies who manage to do so.
Another point to address, is the fact that Rolex replicas actually are produced by criminal organizations. I'm not especially interested in wearing an organized-crime watch on my wrist. At least with these Debaufre's I'm fairly certain they weren't assembled by 12 year old children who are kept under armed surveillance and raped whenever their overseers feel like it.
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