Sinn - provenance?
Discussion
I am seriously considering a Sinn watch, and was curious as to their heritage and provenance.
What movements do they typically employ? Is any of their technology genuinely unique? "Diapal" for example? They seem to be very well specified for the price. Looking at 756/757 for example.
How do they appear to hold their value?
Would people regard these as 'german bremont'?
What movements do they typically employ? Is any of their technology genuinely unique? "Diapal" for example? They seem to be very well specified for the price. Looking at 756/757 for example.
How do they appear to hold their value?
Would people regard these as 'german bremont'?
I think my 556 is fabulous looking but has a standard ETA 2824-2 movement. It's maybe good to 10 seconds or so a day.
Very well put together as most things German seem to be. Top value for money.
Just two dealers in the UK I believe, Jura in London and Neil at Chronomaster. No idea about Jura but deal with Neil with confidence.
No idea about the Diapal and tegimenting technology but I'm sure others will respond.
Very well put together as most things German seem to be. Top value for money.
Just two dealers in the UK I believe, Jura in London and Neil at Chronomaster. No idea about Jura but deal with Neil with confidence.
No idea about the Diapal and tegimenting technology but I'm sure others will respond.
fergus said:
I am seriously considering a Sinn watch, and was curious as to their heritage and provenance.
What movements do they typically employ? Is any of their technology genuinely unique? "Diapal" for example? They seem to be very well specified for the price. Looking at 756/757 for example.
How do they appear to hold their value?
Would people regard these as 'german bremont'?
Movements are universally ETA-based, but extremely well regulated - my 856 was the most accurate mechanical watch I've ever owned, less then 1 second variance per week. I sold it to Stuart in here and he seems reasonably happy with it.What movements do they typically employ? Is any of their technology genuinely unique? "Diapal" for example? They seem to be very well specified for the price. Looking at 756/757 for example.
How do they appear to hold their value?
Would people regard these as 'german bremont'?
They have some very interesting technology, whether its unique or not I couldn't say for sure, but features like "tegimenting" (their case hardening technique); Copper Sulphate capsules for moisture absorption and oil filled cases for exceptional water resistance/depth capabilities are certainly very unusual.
They are extremely well made and exceptionally tough watches.
They've been around a lot longer than Bremont and I would have a Sinn over a Bremont any day of the week. They are also much more reasonably priced.
They seem to hold their value pretty well, though like all luxury goods used prices are under pressure at the moment. The come up for sale reasonably regularly on TZ-UK.
An alternative in a similar market is Damasko, though they are much harder to find (made in smaller numbers) and they don't have the huge range and variety that Sinn do.
The Sinn website is www.sinn.de
A UK reseller I can vouch for is neil at www.chronomaster.co.uk
Started by Helmut Sinn now owned by Lowther Schmidt (who also has a large share of SUG steel, who make steel for the German navy amongst others, hence the use of the sub steel in the U series). Herr Sinn still makes watches (at the grand old age of 92 3/4rs he's taken a back-room role though) under the 'Chronosport' or 'Guinand' name, which are worth a look in their own right. (Herr Sinn was also a lead designer on the original Brietling navitimer apparently). Chronomaster.co.uk has a potted history about how Mr Sinn was a pilot etc wanted a watch etc if you're interested.
Some of the tech is not proprietry, like the oil filled UX, although this has a watch-back 'membrane' to allow slight over-pressure when filling to negate appearence of the vacuum bubble due to large temp changes.
The lube oil with a big temp range (-40 to +80) may be proprietry but I iirc Brietling or someone have a similar oil that they use (maybe Seiko actually?). This is a good one if it's used in cold climates and allows the watch to be worn over the sleeve which is an obvious benefit.
The submarine steel is unique to Sinn and relevent to the series of watches it is used on - i.e. divers. It's more corrosion resistant, has some anti-magnetic properties (so I believe) and is hard wearing - interestingly though it is made to be more flexible than normal steel - far better for a submarine to bend a bit rather than fracture.
The Klozterising or Tegimenting process is (I believe) a case hardening process which Sinn describe as 'special', I suspect that it's a variation on a theme but it does take a 220v steel up to 1,200v but without any 'eggshell' type problems. So pretty good genuine tech. They've also managed to include any PVDing into the process so the PVD hardness matches the steel under it - which is normally a bit of a weak point.
The dehumidifying technology is basically incorporation of 1 (or generaly 3 - 2 are hidden) capsules of Copper Sulphate, not only does this absorb any micro moisture in the case but the capsule is visible and turns dark blue if it does absorb enough water - time then for a service. Again, I don't think this is 'bogus' but a genuine addition. The other parts of the dehumidifying tech are Argon fill (which I think is more about denying O2 in the case as much as micro-moisture, so it cannot react with the oils or metals and cause oxidation and ageing) and the double Viton seals. Viton aren't unique to Sinn but they are the best seals on the market apparently.
In some watches they use a soft iron cage (the sub steel has some anti-mag properties anyway) as other manufacturers, so not proprietry but a common solution which works well.
Diapal is basically using diamond pallets so no lubrification is needed and wear is negated compared to normal. This is proprietry.
Their movements are either ETA 7750s or 2824-2s, they do modify them in some cases and regulate them well I understand. For example the U1000 has a 7750 but modified (and designated 'SZ02') so that it is turned through 180 degrees and has a 60 minute sub-dial minute counter (as opposed to the normal 30min).
Certainly in the U and EZM series I've been impressed with the form over function designs - look at the U1000 again - it's a dive watch so the pushers have large buttons as you may be wearing gloves. As they are big pushers Sinn put them on the left so they don't dig into the back of your hand. It's got a 60 minute over sized sub dial to make legibility easier. (I think legibility is one of their cornerstones tbh). It subdues info you don't need immediately like the constant seconds dial being in black. It's water resistant to 1000m but you can still use the pushers at that depth (ha!) - unlike screw-down ones. It's this sort of attention to detail on the practical front that got me interested in them.
Whether you NEED all that stuff above is anyones guess, we all manage quite well without it in all the other watches we have but I don't think any of it is 'bogus' or 'marketing' based; plus I think they've stayed fairly competitive price-wise - at least you can see the value as opposed to other watches of a similar price. Whether they hold their value really depends on the market, U1s always seem sought after for example so I'd be happy to say you'd always find a buyer but at what price is another matter.
Anyway, HTH, I am an anorak and claim my fiver.
ETA - +1 with what tertious said above.
Some of the tech is not proprietry, like the oil filled UX, although this has a watch-back 'membrane' to allow slight over-pressure when filling to negate appearence of the vacuum bubble due to large temp changes.
The lube oil with a big temp range (-40 to +80) may be proprietry but I iirc Brietling or someone have a similar oil that they use (maybe Seiko actually?). This is a good one if it's used in cold climates and allows the watch to be worn over the sleeve which is an obvious benefit.
The submarine steel is unique to Sinn and relevent to the series of watches it is used on - i.e. divers. It's more corrosion resistant, has some anti-magnetic properties (so I believe) and is hard wearing - interestingly though it is made to be more flexible than normal steel - far better for a submarine to bend a bit rather than fracture.
The Klozterising or Tegimenting process is (I believe) a case hardening process which Sinn describe as 'special', I suspect that it's a variation on a theme but it does take a 220v steel up to 1,200v but without any 'eggshell' type problems. So pretty good genuine tech. They've also managed to include any PVDing into the process so the PVD hardness matches the steel under it - which is normally a bit of a weak point.
The dehumidifying technology is basically incorporation of 1 (or generaly 3 - 2 are hidden) capsules of Copper Sulphate, not only does this absorb any micro moisture in the case but the capsule is visible and turns dark blue if it does absorb enough water - time then for a service. Again, I don't think this is 'bogus' but a genuine addition. The other parts of the dehumidifying tech are Argon fill (which I think is more about denying O2 in the case as much as micro-moisture, so it cannot react with the oils or metals and cause oxidation and ageing) and the double Viton seals. Viton aren't unique to Sinn but they are the best seals on the market apparently.
In some watches they use a soft iron cage (the sub steel has some anti-mag properties anyway) as other manufacturers, so not proprietry but a common solution which works well.
Diapal is basically using diamond pallets so no lubrification is needed and wear is negated compared to normal. This is proprietry.
Their movements are either ETA 7750s or 2824-2s, they do modify them in some cases and regulate them well I understand. For example the U1000 has a 7750 but modified (and designated 'SZ02') so that it is turned through 180 degrees and has a 60 minute sub-dial minute counter (as opposed to the normal 30min).
Certainly in the U and EZM series I've been impressed with the form over function designs - look at the U1000 again - it's a dive watch so the pushers have large buttons as you may be wearing gloves. As they are big pushers Sinn put them on the left so they don't dig into the back of your hand. It's got a 60 minute over sized sub dial to make legibility easier. (I think legibility is one of their cornerstones tbh). It subdues info you don't need immediately like the constant seconds dial being in black. It's water resistant to 1000m but you can still use the pushers at that depth (ha!) - unlike screw-down ones. It's this sort of attention to detail on the practical front that got me interested in them.
Whether you NEED all that stuff above is anyones guess, we all manage quite well without it in all the other watches we have but I don't think any of it is 'bogus' or 'marketing' based; plus I think they've stayed fairly competitive price-wise - at least you can see the value as opposed to other watches of a similar price. Whether they hold their value really depends on the market, U1s always seem sought after for example so I'd be happy to say you'd always find a buyer but at what price is another matter.
Anyway, HTH, I am an anorak and claim my fiver.
ETA - +1 with what tertious said above.
Edited by andy_s on Wednesday 11th November 16:39
If all your mechanicals are within COSC standards I think you're very lucky.
I was perhaps being a bit pessimistic and it probably doesn't help with it being on a winder over 90% of the time.
is that good? Most of my newish mechanicals are within 0-3 seconds over 24 hours. I got one of my vintage Omegas serviced because it was off by about 15-20 seconds over the same period...
I was perhaps being a bit pessimistic and it probably doesn't help with it being on a winder over 90% of the time.
HereBeMonsters said:
J888SXY said:
It's maybe good to 10 seconds or so a day.
is that good? Most of my newish mechanicals are within 0-3 seconds over 24 hours. I got one of my vintage Omegas serviced because it was off by about 15-20 seconds over the same period...Gassing Station | Watches | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff