Top 20 Manufactures (long)
Discussion
Apologies in advance this is a long post.
What follows is my attempt to produce a ranked listing of the top 20 watch manufactures. It is wholly my opinion and not meant to be definitive in any way.
How I went about it:
1. I have deliberately not considered the boutique and very small manufactures like Urwerk, Richard Mille, Greubel Forsey, etc. as I feel these are in a class of their own
2. In coming to a ranking I have considered various characteristics that are important to me, such as in-house movement manufacture; innovation; variety of design; history and so on
3. I have tried to summarise in a few words the KEY points that have led me to a particular ranking
4. I have drawn the line at 20 simply to make it manageable
My purpose was two-fold:
Firstly and mainly I did it for fun, I had an enjoyable time doing the research and deciding on the placing. Though flippin’ heck it has taken me a long time to do.
Secondly I hope it will spur some discussion and that it will be interesting discussion …
I know we have had a couple of goes at it before but I think this is the first time we’ve had a starting point like this.
If you disagree, which I hope and expect you will then my only request is that you must justify (in a few words) why you think something is wrong. Simply saying “X is the best” won’t cut it I’m afraid.
The OP's decision is final ...
As I looked again and again at the list I came to the conclusion that it was almost impossible to have a completely reliable ordered list, and that there were actually four groups – and placing a particular maker within the group is probably quite fluid. Nevertheless they do appear *in order*.
Finally I'm sure there are some errors of fact in here, I'll accept responsibility for those now.
Group 1:
1. Jaeger-LeCoultre - variety, unparalleled movement innovation, the Reverso a standout iconic design; the only manufacture to have supplied movements to all the "big three" (my 3. 4. and 5.)
2. A.Lange & Sohn - fantastic quality and attention to detail; finishing is out of this world; innovative styles; would be 1. except only for limiting case materials to precious metals only
3. Vacheron Constantin – extraordinary range and history, beautiful designs, not exclusively in-house, but checkout the VC ultrathin 1003 movement
4. Patek Philippe - fabulous range, a true "name", quality, history, but are they just a bit dull?
5. Audemars Piguet – I’ve found it hard to get to grips with AP, however, the Royal Oak is undoubtedly an absolutely iconic design, and I have really grown to appreciate it; high quality finishing and a great range beyond the RO, including some wonderful complications
Group 2:
6. Breguet - interesting maker with a great history, rather let down by their designs; mainly but not entirely in-house
7. Blancpain – just fantastic history, any maker that can produce the Fifty Fathoms has be high on the list; in-house movements
8. Seiko - the complete manufacture; produce every component imaginable; the widest range (by just about every conceivable measure)
9. Glashutte Original - great range, relatively affordable, some very interesting designs, in-house movements, beautifully finished
10. Girard-Perregaux - extraordinary, inventive designs, now almost fully in-house
Group 3:
11. IWC – great historic maker; almost more German than Swiss; some fabulous classical designs (Portuguese, Big Pilot); some extremely fine complications; some use of bought in ebauches
12. Ulysse Nardin – great name, but some rather “challenging” designs and rather too much use of bought in movements
13. Rolex - universally known, and to the non-WIS often the "best"; however, too few styles, and limited complications to rank higher
14. Zenith - maker of probably the greatest chrono movement of them all, but not very innovative (only two movements the El Primero and the Elite), finding their way again but some of the recent designs are a bit in your face
15. Chopard - most closely associated with motor racing; a great history; mixture of bought in and in-house movements but many fascinating in-house developments
Group 4:
16. Nomos - in-house; very affordable; interesting elegant designs with some unusual complications;
17. Omega - fabulous history; great range; let down by near ubiquitous use of bought in movements
18. Panerai - very clear house style; but rather limited variety in my view; trades heavily on a slightly tenuous history; mainly basic bought-in movements; new in-house movements disproportionately expensive
19. Breitling – almost entirely bought in movements; clear (limiting?) association with aviation
20. Frederique Constant – rather under-rated in my view; some in house movements; rather “classical” range of styles, with little or nothing in the sports line (as an aside they have a lot of detail on their movements on their website – worth a look)
Change Log
a. 10 Jan - Breguet promoted to number 6. (6. to 13. move down one place)
b. 10 Jan - Chopard introduced at number 15. (15. to 19. move down one place; 20. Citizen dropped from the list)
Some notes:
a. I had originally hoped to include an illustrative image alongside each brand/position but it made the post rather unwieldy/hard to read
b. I've used the term iconic a couple of times - I think there may be a follow up piece on iconic watch designs ... (JLC Reverso; AP Royal Oak; Blancpain Fifty Fathoms; Rolex Sunmariner and Breitling Navitimer all come to mind)
Edited because I hit submit too soon ...
What follows is my attempt to produce a ranked listing of the top 20 watch manufactures. It is wholly my opinion and not meant to be definitive in any way.
How I went about it:
1. I have deliberately not considered the boutique and very small manufactures like Urwerk, Richard Mille, Greubel Forsey, etc. as I feel these are in a class of their own
2. In coming to a ranking I have considered various characteristics that are important to me, such as in-house movement manufacture; innovation; variety of design; history and so on
3. I have tried to summarise in a few words the KEY points that have led me to a particular ranking
4. I have drawn the line at 20 simply to make it manageable
My purpose was two-fold:
Firstly and mainly I did it for fun, I had an enjoyable time doing the research and deciding on the placing. Though flippin’ heck it has taken me a long time to do.
Secondly I hope it will spur some discussion and that it will be interesting discussion …
I know we have had a couple of goes at it before but I think this is the first time we’ve had a starting point like this.If you disagree, which I hope and expect you will then my only request is that you must justify (in a few words) why you think something is wrong. Simply saying “X is the best” won’t cut it I’m afraid.
The OP's decision is final ...
As I looked again and again at the list I came to the conclusion that it was almost impossible to have a completely reliable ordered list, and that there were actually four groups – and placing a particular maker within the group is probably quite fluid. Nevertheless they do appear *in order*.
Finally I'm sure there are some errors of fact in here, I'll accept responsibility for those now.
Group 1:
1. Jaeger-LeCoultre - variety, unparalleled movement innovation, the Reverso a standout iconic design; the only manufacture to have supplied movements to all the "big three" (my 3. 4. and 5.)
2. A.Lange & Sohn - fantastic quality and attention to detail; finishing is out of this world; innovative styles; would be 1. except only for limiting case materials to precious metals only
3. Vacheron Constantin – extraordinary range and history, beautiful designs, not exclusively in-house, but checkout the VC ultrathin 1003 movement
4. Patek Philippe - fabulous range, a true "name", quality, history, but are they just a bit dull?
5. Audemars Piguet – I’ve found it hard to get to grips with AP, however, the Royal Oak is undoubtedly an absolutely iconic design, and I have really grown to appreciate it; high quality finishing and a great range beyond the RO, including some wonderful complications
Group 2:
6. Breguet - interesting maker with a great history, rather let down by their designs; mainly but not entirely in-house
7. Blancpain – just fantastic history, any maker that can produce the Fifty Fathoms has be high on the list; in-house movements
8. Seiko - the complete manufacture; produce every component imaginable; the widest range (by just about every conceivable measure)
9. Glashutte Original - great range, relatively affordable, some very interesting designs, in-house movements, beautifully finished
10. Girard-Perregaux - extraordinary, inventive designs, now almost fully in-house
Group 3:
11. IWC – great historic maker; almost more German than Swiss; some fabulous classical designs (Portuguese, Big Pilot); some extremely fine complications; some use of bought in ebauches
12. Ulysse Nardin – great name, but some rather “challenging” designs and rather too much use of bought in movements
13. Rolex - universally known, and to the non-WIS often the "best"; however, too few styles, and limited complications to rank higher
14. Zenith - maker of probably the greatest chrono movement of them all, but not very innovative (only two movements the El Primero and the Elite), finding their way again but some of the recent designs are a bit in your face
15. Chopard - most closely associated with motor racing; a great history; mixture of bought in and in-house movements but many fascinating in-house developments
Group 4:
16. Nomos - in-house; very affordable; interesting elegant designs with some unusual complications;
17. Omega - fabulous history; great range; let down by near ubiquitous use of bought in movements
18. Panerai - very clear house style; but rather limited variety in my view; trades heavily on a slightly tenuous history; mainly basic bought-in movements; new in-house movements disproportionately expensive
19. Breitling – almost entirely bought in movements; clear (limiting?) association with aviation
20. Frederique Constant – rather under-rated in my view; some in house movements; rather “classical” range of styles, with little or nothing in the sports line (as an aside they have a lot of detail on their movements on their website – worth a look)
Change Log
a. 10 Jan - Breguet promoted to number 6. (6. to 13. move down one place)
b. 10 Jan - Chopard introduced at number 15. (15. to 19. move down one place; 20. Citizen dropped from the list)
Some notes:
a. I had originally hoped to include an illustrative image alongside each brand/position but it made the post rather unwieldy/hard to read
b. I've used the term iconic a couple of times - I think there may be a follow up piece on iconic watch designs ... (JLC Reverso; AP Royal Oak; Blancpain Fifty Fathoms; Rolex Sunmariner and Breitling Navitimer all come to mind)
Edited because I hit submit too soon ...
Edited by tertius on Saturday 8th January 18:45
Edited by tertius on Monday 10th January 22:49
Interesting groupings.
Not sure I'd agree with the lowly ranking of Breguet though.
Edited to upgrade my challenge to the low ranking.
It's actually pretty incomprehensible.
Breguet's place in watchmaking history (eg Tourbillon) is surely enough to warrant a higher ranking?
Not sure I'd agree with the lowly ranking of Breguet though.
Edited to upgrade my challenge to the low ranking.
It's actually pretty incomprehensible.
Breguet's place in watchmaking history (eg Tourbillon) is surely enough to warrant a higher ranking?
Edited by whoami on Saturday 8th January 22:15
Ash 996 GT2 said:
This thread could last the whole year.
I am looking forward to keeping an eye on this.
Absolutely I am looking forward to keeping an eye on this.
I was surprised to see Breguet where it is, however, I'm not knowledgeable enough to come up with a decent counter-argument.
That said, I do agree with the rest, particularly the top two.
Edited by ApexJimi on Saturday 8th January 21:33
Try telling 'the man on the street' that Seiko is above Rolex.... 
Seriously though, from the relatively little I know about either of them I can see why even I would rank them as such - they've a huge and varied range, a watch at every price point, quality control along with mass production, inventive case designs, ground breaking and supremely accurate movements (I'm thinking of the Spring Drive here), I love the idea of their pursuit of perfection with their Grand Seiko range, love the fact that people give nicknames to some of their models (Monster, Tuna, Samurai...),I *really* appreciate the fact that they're one of the very few that make the *entire* finished item (including the lubricating oils!) but most of all I love the fact that that I read somewhere they were kicked out of timekeeping competitions because they were just too damn good! Japanese upstart kicking Swiss butt sounds kinda cool!
Maybe one day I'll know enough about the others to comment...
And, despite all that, one day I *will* own a SeaDweller...
Seriously though, from the relatively little I know about either of them I can see why even I would rank them as such - they've a huge and varied range, a watch at every price point, quality control along with mass production, inventive case designs, ground breaking and supremely accurate movements (I'm thinking of the Spring Drive here), I love the idea of their pursuit of perfection with their Grand Seiko range, love the fact that people give nicknames to some of their models (Monster, Tuna, Samurai...),I *really* appreciate the fact that they're one of the very few that make the *entire* finished item (including the lubricating oils!) but most of all I love the fact that that I read somewhere they were kicked out of timekeeping competitions because they were just too damn good! Japanese upstart kicking Swiss butt sounds kinda cool!
Maybe one day I'll know enough about the others to comment...
And, despite all that, one day I *will* own a SeaDweller...
Edited by CardShark on Saturday 8th January 22:54
Pretty well thought out on the whole Dan, although I'd have Breguet higher too.
Also by limiting to twenty you're always going to miss some out but I’d have thought Heuer / Tag Heuer worthy of inclusion admittedly mainly for the Heuer era stuff and as you've included Citizen you probably should include Casio. Sure it's all quartz, but they make s
t loads and are very innovative.
Also by limiting to twenty you're always going to miss some out but I’d have thought Heuer / Tag Heuer worthy of inclusion admittedly mainly for the Heuer era stuff and as you've included Citizen you probably should include Casio. Sure it's all quartz, but they make s
t loads and are very innovative.Edited by andy tims on Saturday 8th January 22:58
Interesting list. I do agree with it, although I have a few thoughts.
I still struggle with Seiko sitting alongside the really prestigious makers. However I know that's just down to my preconceptions and snobbery, and I fully understand and appreciate what they do.
I also would have liked to see Omega higher, but that's just down to my affection for the brand, and I can't really give any justification for it.
What's your criteria for being a 'manufacture'? Would Stowa qualify when they start using Durowe movements?
I still struggle with Seiko sitting alongside the really prestigious makers. However I know that's just down to my preconceptions and snobbery, and I fully understand and appreciate what they do.
I also would have liked to see Omega higher, but that's just down to my affection for the brand, and I can't really give any justification for it.
What's your criteria for being a 'manufacture'? Would Stowa qualify when they start using Durowe movements?
Getting ready to be flamed but...............
Seiko above Rolex
Nissan above Porsche
Skyline GTR - fantastic car, but wouldn't you have a 911 GTE RS or 911 Turbo instead?
I would rather have a (and do) a Porsche.
Suspect this doesn't work as an analogy due to seiko history but horses for courses ( I do own a Subm, a PO and Seiko 5 though)
Just a view, not sure of other folks views.
Seiko above Rolex
Nissan above Porsche
Skyline GTR - fantastic car, but wouldn't you have a 911 GTE RS or 911 Turbo instead?
I would rather have a (and do) a Porsche.
Suspect this doesn't work as an analogy due to seiko history but horses for courses ( I do own a Subm, a PO and Seiko 5 though)
Just a view, not sure of other folks views.
mikees said:
Skyline GTR - fantastic car, but wouldn't you have a 911 GTE RS or 911 Turbo instead?
Not sure about that model but a GT3 RS would be 
....... I see where you're coming from though, I guess that it's all down to how each individual ranks brands within a product group. Some people are more informed than others, other people have different priorities or mindsets, but regardless of that I guess that there will always be a grey area.
- **Come on cyberface, where are you?****
Edited by CardShark on Saturday 8th January 23:48
mikees said:
Getting ready to be flamed but...............
Seiko above Rolex
Nissan above Porsche
Skyline GTR - fantastic car, but wouldn't you have a 911 GTE RS or 911 Turbo instead?
I would rather have a (and do) a Porsche.
Suspect this doesn't work as an analogy due to seiko history but horses for courses ( I do own a Subm, a PO and Seiko 5 though)
Just a view, not sure of other folks views.
There is a price differential though.Seiko above Rolex
Nissan above Porsche
Skyline GTR - fantastic car, but wouldn't you have a 911 GTE RS or 911 Turbo instead?
I would rather have a (and do) a Porsche.
Suspect this doesn't work as an analogy due to seiko history but horses for courses ( I do own a Subm, a PO and Seiko 5 though)
Just a view, not sure of other folks views.
Yes, you would choose a 911 over a GTR but if you're on more of a budget you can get all the performance of a 911TT in a slightly less desirable package for almost half the cost.
I'm unsure Seiko deserve such a high ranking.
Reason? They're like white goods, or rather in car terms, Toyota. Everything from the expensive stuff (LFA, albeit a Lexus) to the mundane ( which is great but this is where they concentrate their efforts) but IMHO evoke very little emotion. I admire them for the vastness of product but don't find they are a brand you hanker after.
Reason? They're like white goods, or rather in car terms, Toyota. Everything from the expensive stuff (LFA, albeit a Lexus) to the mundane ( which is great but this is where they concentrate their efforts) but IMHO evoke very little emotion. I admire them for the vastness of product but don't find they are a brand you hanker after.
OK, I won't have much time to post over the next few days, so I'll try to respond quickly to a few of the comments so far
1. Breguet - it looks as though I have ranked them too low, and I am certainly open to moving them up the list. I do agree that they have a fabulous history and Abraham Breguet himself was undoubtedly a genius, I think there are some significant gaps between the company of today and Abraham himself. There is also a certain sameness about their current watches - to me they don't display the flair and innovation of a J-LC or a GO. There's also a bit too much other stuff going for my liking - jewellery, pens, etc..
So the Breguet faction need to suggest where it should be on the list and why.
2. Limiting it to 20 - yes, I agree this has resulted in some significant omissions (Heuer/Tag Heuer and Maurice Lacroix to name but two), I don't know what the answer is except to extend the list.
3. Seiko - if you consider my criteria (as set out in the first post) I don't think you can do anything but rate Seiko extremely highly - total in-house manufacture; incredible range; tremendous history; innovation ... they have everything. To say they are not aspirational is I think to look at it from a very Western perspective, they are certainly aspirational in Japan.
4. Cars and watches - I don't really believe this is a viable comparison, there aren't enough similarities/touch points between the two to make valid judgments. They are totally different products, manufactured in totally different ways. And for what its worth, yes I'd have the GT3 RS over the GT-R, but I'd also have (some) Seikos over (some) Rolex, so where does that get us ...
5. Manufacture - to qualify as a manufacture (in my terms), the company has to produce at least some of their movements substantially in-house. To be frank its a bit of a flxible definition - we could argue all day about whether using nivarox mainsprings means its no longer in-house or not - but as a for instance, Stowa (and many others) didn't qualify (much as I love them) because they only use bought in movements.
Finally remember its just a bit of fun - its clearly not possible to produce a fully justified and unarguable result, but I think we can have fun trying.
1. Breguet - it looks as though I have ranked them too low, and I am certainly open to moving them up the list. I do agree that they have a fabulous history and Abraham Breguet himself was undoubtedly a genius, I think there are some significant gaps between the company of today and Abraham himself. There is also a certain sameness about their current watches - to me they don't display the flair and innovation of a J-LC or a GO. There's also a bit too much other stuff going for my liking - jewellery, pens, etc..
So the Breguet faction need to suggest where it should be on the list and why.
2. Limiting it to 20 - yes, I agree this has resulted in some significant omissions (Heuer/Tag Heuer and Maurice Lacroix to name but two), I don't know what the answer is except to extend the list.
3. Seiko - if you consider my criteria (as set out in the first post) I don't think you can do anything but rate Seiko extremely highly - total in-house manufacture; incredible range; tremendous history; innovation ... they have everything. To say they are not aspirational is I think to look at it from a very Western perspective, they are certainly aspirational in Japan.
4. Cars and watches - I don't really believe this is a viable comparison, there aren't enough similarities/touch points between the two to make valid judgments. They are totally different products, manufactured in totally different ways. And for what its worth, yes I'd have the GT3 RS over the GT-R, but I'd also have (some) Seikos over (some) Rolex, so where does that get us ...
5. Manufacture - to qualify as a manufacture (in my terms), the company has to produce at least some of their movements substantially in-house. To be frank its a bit of a flxible definition - we could argue all day about whether using nivarox mainsprings means its no longer in-house or not - but as a for instance, Stowa (and many others) didn't qualify (much as I love them) because they only use bought in movements.
Finally remember its just a bit of fun - its clearly not possible to produce a fully justified and unarguable result, but I think we can have fun trying.
It's nice to see JLC at the top - I personally favour their designs too and plan to add one to the (very small) collection at some point.
As for Seiko, a colleague of mine has a Grand Seiko imported from Japan - a very nice watch indeed. They are not just a high street brand, as all you WIS's already know.
As for Seiko, a colleague of mine has a Grand Seiko imported from Japan - a very nice watch indeed. They are not just a high street brand, as all you WIS's already know.
Edited by B0bman on Sunday 9th January 08:17
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