Rambler 100 capsized during Fastnet
Discussion
Canting keels. Undoubtedly moved boat performance on leaps and bounds, but come on, they are just dangerous! I’ve lost count of the boats that have dropped their keels now…does anyone have any percentage statistics? Apparently five of the crew got separated and were drifting away from the boat for three hours…if that had happened on Rambler100’s recent transat trip, would they (or any?) have got rescued? Imagine the hoo-har if it had been Richard and Holly Branson aboard during Rambler’s Speedboat/Virgin Money days! I sailed an Open 60 once and it was very re-assuring to know that the keel was a fixed one after talking to the project manager of a very well known modern 60. Apparently the conversation with various project leads went like this…
Numbers man-“How much does your keel weigh?”
Keel man-“About this much”.
Numbers man-“Yikes, fully canted that is going to exert a shock loading of x if we fall off a wave at 30 knots”
Hull man-“Well that’s going to deflect our hull by x amount where the rams are mounted, at the point of landing”
Numbers man-“Hydraulics man, how much deflection can your ram stand without falling off?”
Hydraulics man-“None at all”
Scary stuff though…I saw Rambler100 a couple of weeks ago at Gosport. She was in the water, mid-tide, and her mast towered above a VO70…even though the VO70 was out the water and on a cradle!
Glad everyone’s OK…
Numbers man-“How much does your keel weigh?”
Keel man-“About this much”.
Numbers man-“Yikes, fully canted that is going to exert a shock loading of x if we fall off a wave at 30 knots”
Hull man-“Well that’s going to deflect our hull by x amount where the rams are mounted, at the point of landing”
Numbers man-“Hydraulics man, how much deflection can your ram stand without falling off?”
Hydraulics man-“None at all”
Scary stuff though…I saw Rambler100 a couple of weeks ago at Gosport. She was in the water, mid-tide, and her mast towered above a VO70…even though the VO70 was out the water and on a cradle!
Glad everyone’s OK…
Most boats are not built like the used to be....most production boats are built to a cost due to the bean counters, and are not over engineered as they used to be.
Yes we have to push the performance boundary, but there is a point when it gets unfair on the rescue services, even if the crew are willing to take the risk.
Irish sea is one thing middle of Transatlantic is a different thing, so it would have been a different ending if dropped off there.
There's no pit crew or spare boat out in the middle of the ogin.
I think also the race looses some of its kudos when it can be seen as day race in the right tools...somehow it takes it away from a offshore adventure..
Maybe I am just getting old....Anyway the Round Ireland RORC race is much better..longer and tougher. The West Coast is a Interesting place in blow.. Oh and the parties are better cos its Ireland...and less of "The Big I am" attitude.
Yes we have to push the performance boundary, but there is a point when it gets unfair on the rescue services, even if the crew are willing to take the risk.
Irish sea is one thing middle of Transatlantic is a different thing, so it would have been a different ending if dropped off there.
There's no pit crew or spare boat out in the middle of the ogin.
I think also the race looses some of its kudos when it can be seen as day race in the right tools...somehow it takes it away from a offshore adventure..
Maybe I am just getting old....Anyway the Round Ireland RORC race is much better..longer and tougher. The West Coast is a Interesting place in blow.. Oh and the parties are better cos its Ireland...and less of "The Big I am" attitude.
Edited by Rum Runner on Tuesday 16th August 13:48
Any news on a salvage operation yet?
Rum runner talks some sense there, where do the performance and bean counters stop, and proper safety come back in? Very strange for something of this cost and ilk to fail so early in it's life. Sure there will be a lot of questions being asked in the industry right now....
On a similar note though, was it Bavaria 40s a few years ago that had a more-than-normal incidence of keels falling off, and there was a big recall?
Rum runner talks some sense there, where do the performance and bean counters stop, and proper safety come back in? Very strange for something of this cost and ilk to fail so early in it's life. Sure there will be a lot of questions being asked in the industry right now....
On a similar note though, was it Bavaria 40s a few years ago that had a more-than-normal incidence of keels falling off, and there was a big recall?
Rum Runner said:
Most boats are not built like the used to be....most production boats are built to a cost due to the bean counters, and are not over engineered as they used to be.
Yes we have to push the performance boundary, but there is a point when it gets unfair on the rescue services, even if the crew are willing to take the risk.
Irish sea is one thing middle of Transatlantic is a different thing, so it would have been a different ending if dropped off there.
There's no pit crew or spare boat out in the middle of the ogin.
I think also the race looses some of its kudos when it can be seen as day race in the right tools...somehow it takes it away from a offshore adventure..
Maybe I am just getting old....Anyway the Round Ireland RORC race is much better..longer and tougher. The West Coast is a Interesting place in blow.. Oh and the parties are better cos its Ireland...and less of "The Big I am" attitude.
Very well said. Remember the 1979 Fastnet, too - reading Rousmaniere's "Fastnet Force 10" made my blood run cold. As did, with added equations: Marchaj on "Seaworthiness"Yes we have to push the performance boundary, but there is a point when it gets unfair on the rescue services, even if the crew are willing to take the risk.
Irish sea is one thing middle of Transatlantic is a different thing, so it would have been a different ending if dropped off there.
There's no pit crew or spare boat out in the middle of the ogin.
I think also the race looses some of its kudos when it can be seen as day race in the right tools...somehow it takes it away from a offshore adventure..
Maybe I am just getting old....Anyway the Round Ireland RORC race is much better..longer and tougher. The West Coast is a Interesting place in blow.. Oh and the parties are better cos its Ireland...and less of "The Big I am" attitude.
Edited by Rum Runner on Tuesday 16th August 13:48
badgers_back said:
See drum Britain if you try hard enough you can always take a keel off
first thing i thought, very close to the same spot as Drum loosing her keel way back when!Its a difficult one, the owners, crew and sponsors are all trying to go faster and faster, but are they now reaching the critical point where they are pushing the tolerances of materials and designs beyond what gets thrown at them?
TBH the whole engineered concept of canting keels gives me the willies, give me a nice big solid fin / bulb with a few keel bolts that i can give a reassuring kick now and again!!!
eta - can't beat the old Avon Redstart for a liferaft!!! Seems even the RNLI Carry them!!!
Edited by XJSJohn on Tuesday 16th August 14:25
Rum Runner said:
Most boats are not built like the used to be....most production boats are built to a cost due to the bean counters, and are not over engineered as they used to be.
Yes we have to push the performance boundary, but there is a point when it gets unfair on the rescue services, even if the crew are willing to take the risk.
Irish sea is one thing middle of Transatlantic is a different thing, so it would have been a different ending if dropped off there.
There's no pit crew or spare boat out in the middle of the ogin.
I think also the race looses some of its kudos when it can be seen as day race in the right tools...somehow it takes it away from a offshore adventure..
Maybe I am just getting old....Anyway the Round Ireland RORC race is much better..longer and tougher. The West Coast is a Interesting place in blow.. Oh and the parties are better cos its Ireland...and less of "The Big I am" attitude.
What he said!Yes we have to push the performance boundary, but there is a point when it gets unfair on the rescue services, even if the crew are willing to take the risk.
Irish sea is one thing middle of Transatlantic is a different thing, so it would have been a different ending if dropped off there.
There's no pit crew or spare boat out in the middle of the ogin.
I think also the race looses some of its kudos when it can be seen as day race in the right tools...somehow it takes it away from a offshore adventure..
Maybe I am just getting old....Anyway the Round Ireland RORC race is much better..longer and tougher. The West Coast is a Interesting place in blow.. Oh and the parties are better cos its Ireland...and less of "The Big I am" attitude.
Edited by Rum Runner on Tuesday 16th August 13:48
Exactly why I like old boats! I'd rather be comfortable in something slower and seaworthy.
If you want to go fast, buy a Learjet.
Hard-Drive said:
Numbers man-“How much does your keel weigh?”
Keel man-“About this much”.
Numbers man-“Yikes, fully canted that is going to exert a shock loading of x if we fall off a wave at 30 knots”
Hull man-“Well that’s going to deflect our hull by x amount where the rams are mounted, at the point of landing”
Numbers man-“Hydraulics man, how much deflection can your ram stand without falling off?”
Hydraulics man-“None at all”
Its not overly difficult to make hydraulics with a level of suspension in them. Just a set of gas accumulators which act like suspension on a car. Whether they use them or not I dont know, but the option is there if the shock loads are getting silly and causing stress. Keel man-“About this much”.
Numbers man-“Yikes, fully canted that is going to exert a shock loading of x if we fall off a wave at 30 knots”
Hull man-“Well that’s going to deflect our hull by x amount where the rams are mounted, at the point of landing”
Numbers man-“Hydraulics man, how much deflection can your ram stand without falling off?”
Hydraulics man-“None at all”
I think the shock loads are not only limited to sideways force where rams act to swing the keel. Its also pitching which then is on the swing pin mounting fore and aft. Yes it could also be hydraulically suspended I guess to take account for shocking load at the pin ends / mounts .
Problem with all high aspect foils is small surface area mounting around the keelbox or bulb, leverage, weight saving etc.
I my personally view some of the best all round boats , design , construction. speed v stability handling where built in the period of the 90's , overlapping a few years either side
As with all boats they are compromise but for me there seem to less of them with a good number of boats of that era.
I got off a modern and straight onto a 80's Swan last week... I have spent time on a few old Swans but to step from a modern production boat to the Swan ....it felt as solid as tarmac road when walking on deck...single point lifting eye on the keel bolts and hole in the coach roof to attach the cable...
Oh and real STAINLESS steel fittings, yet getting on for 30 years old.
Teak deck that has a lot more thickness than 80 gsm printing paper.
Worlds apart....although a bit off subject to the Op...yet in there day these boats where doing a lot of offshore campaigns. Some have gone on to do many circum nav's.
These extreme boats have a short life expectancy and will end up going soft / structural problems and getting cut up. Issue is when do you decide that day has come without structural failure potentially costing lives.
Problem with all high aspect foils is small surface area mounting around the keelbox or bulb, leverage, weight saving etc.
I my personally view some of the best all round boats , design , construction. speed v stability handling where built in the period of the 90's , overlapping a few years either side
As with all boats they are compromise but for me there seem to less of them with a good number of boats of that era.
I got off a modern and straight onto a 80's Swan last week... I have spent time on a few old Swans but to step from a modern production boat to the Swan ....it felt as solid as tarmac road when walking on deck...single point lifting eye on the keel bolts and hole in the coach roof to attach the cable...
Oh and real STAINLESS steel fittings, yet getting on for 30 years old.
Teak deck that has a lot more thickness than 80 gsm printing paper.
Worlds apart....although a bit off subject to the Op...yet in there day these boats where doing a lot of offshore campaigns. Some have gone on to do many circum nav's.
These extreme boats have a short life expectancy and will end up going soft / structural problems and getting cut up. Issue is when do you decide that day has come without structural failure potentially costing lives.
Edited by Rum Runner on Tuesday 16th August 23:20
used to be that you wondered if you could get 2 regatta's out of your fancy race sails, now they are wondering if they can get 2 regatta's out of the hulls!!!XJSJohn said:
Its a difficult one, the owners, crew and sponsors are all trying to go faster and faster, but are they now reaching the critical point where they are pushing the tolerances of materials and designs beyond what gets thrown at them?
Remember back to your yoof when a certain nob end suggested that the idea of wave piercing designs would never catch on and subsequently, how wrong he was. I suspect the design and engineering world will have plenty more coming along in the coming years.Snoggledog said:
XJSJohn said:
Its a difficult one, the owners, crew and sponsors are all trying to go faster and faster, but are they now reaching the critical point where they are pushing the tolerances of materials and designs beyond what gets thrown at them?
Remember back to your yoof when a certain nob end suggested that the idea of wave piercing designs would never catch on and subsequently, how wrong he was. I suspect the design and engineering world will have plenty more coming along in the coming years.
this nob end cannot remember which nobend said that ...
something to do with student unions and beers!!!
so it is probably me that is the nob end ....
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Fittster said:
Where does the power to operate the keel come from, is there a diesel generator running continually?
Batteries & Elec / Hyd Motor.Recharge though a gennie I believe.
http://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/cariboni-giovanni/ca...
XJSJohn said:
this nob end cannot remember which nobend said that ...
something to do with student unions and beers!!!
so it is probably me that is the nob end ....
I was referring to our esteemed lecturer. A certain Mr.f
k who's initials bare more than a startling resemblance to the last PM.
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