Astute class (SSN)......time to do a Nimrod?
Discussion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/15/astute-hu...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/15/hms-astut...
"It would also be incapable of keeping pace with the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers, which will be able to travel at more than 30 knots and need the submarines to protect them. One source told the Guardian the boat had a "V8 engine with a Morris Minor gearbox".
Other problems that have affected the boat in recent months include:
• Flooding during a routine dive that led to Astute performing an emergency surfacing.
• Corrosion even though the boat is essentially new.
• The replacement or moving of computer circuit boards because they did not meet safety standards.
• Concern over the instruments monitoring the nuclear reactor because the wrong type of lead was used.
• Questions being raised about the quality and installation of other pieces of equipment.
"The Guardian has learned that during exercises off the east coast of the United States, a cap on one of the pipes that takes seawater from the back of the submarine to the reactor sprang a leak. A compartment began flooding with seawater, forcing the commander to surface immediately. Though nobody was hurt, an investigation revealed a cap was made from the wrong metal, even though construction records said the right metal had been installed."
""The fact the cap failed is bad enough, but the most worrying thing is that there is no way of knowing whether the submarine has other pieces of equipment like this on board," said a source. "The quality assurance tests are there to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen, but it did. So what else has been installed that we don't know about? "
"The detectors which measure the power coming from the reactor are in a lead-lined water jacket that surrounds the reactor core.
The lead has to be "virgin" metal, mined from great depth, so that it does not carry any electrical charge of its own that could generate a false reading.
However, the lead used in Astute was not of the right quality, which means instruments gave incorrect readings. Using impure lead can also have a knock-on effect during maintenance – the charged metal can create increased and persistent radioactivity within the reactor compartment.
A source said this oversight was "unforgivable". Initially the MoD denied there was a problem with the reactor instruments. However, it then conceded the wrong lead had been used – but insisted tests showed the accuracy of the readings had not been affected. "
"Of all the difficulties, it is the problems with propulsion which are the most sensitive. The MoD stated Astute would be able to make 29 knots, but the Guardian has been told it cannot do this."
The nuclear engineering expert John Large, who led the team evaluating the risks from the reactors and weapons on board the Russian submarine, Kursk, said: "I expect there will now be some serious soul-searching at the MoD, what went wrong and who is to blame, but to conceal the detail of the failures is wholly inappropriate because it protects the incompetent and, quite possibly, permits an unacceptable element of the nuclear safety risk to persist.
"Large added: "So much promise was held out for the Astute class of nuclear powered submarine but these faults occurring during its commissioning into active/service, particularly in the propulsion system and its under-performance, suggest that the whole has been cobbled together from some ill-fitting parts – the real concern here is that these or similar mismatches will compromise nuclear safety at risk to crews and the public generally."
Well, another outstanding product from BaE.....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/15/hms-astut...
"It would also be incapable of keeping pace with the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers, which will be able to travel at more than 30 knots and need the submarines to protect them. One source told the Guardian the boat had a "V8 engine with a Morris Minor gearbox".
Other problems that have affected the boat in recent months include:
• Flooding during a routine dive that led to Astute performing an emergency surfacing.
• Corrosion even though the boat is essentially new.
• The replacement or moving of computer circuit boards because they did not meet safety standards.
• Concern over the instruments monitoring the nuclear reactor because the wrong type of lead was used.
• Questions being raised about the quality and installation of other pieces of equipment.
"The Guardian has learned that during exercises off the east coast of the United States, a cap on one of the pipes that takes seawater from the back of the submarine to the reactor sprang a leak. A compartment began flooding with seawater, forcing the commander to surface immediately. Though nobody was hurt, an investigation revealed a cap was made from the wrong metal, even though construction records said the right metal had been installed."
""The fact the cap failed is bad enough, but the most worrying thing is that there is no way of knowing whether the submarine has other pieces of equipment like this on board," said a source. "The quality assurance tests are there to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen, but it did. So what else has been installed that we don't know about? "
"The detectors which measure the power coming from the reactor are in a lead-lined water jacket that surrounds the reactor core.
The lead has to be "virgin" metal, mined from great depth, so that it does not carry any electrical charge of its own that could generate a false reading.
However, the lead used in Astute was not of the right quality, which means instruments gave incorrect readings. Using impure lead can also have a knock-on effect during maintenance – the charged metal can create increased and persistent radioactivity within the reactor compartment.
A source said this oversight was "unforgivable". Initially the MoD denied there was a problem with the reactor instruments. However, it then conceded the wrong lead had been used – but insisted tests showed the accuracy of the readings had not been affected. "
"Of all the difficulties, it is the problems with propulsion which are the most sensitive. The MoD stated Astute would be able to make 29 knots, but the Guardian has been told it cannot do this."
The nuclear engineering expert John Large, who led the team evaluating the risks from the reactors and weapons on board the Russian submarine, Kursk, said: "I expect there will now be some serious soul-searching at the MoD, what went wrong and who is to blame, but to conceal the detail of the failures is wholly inappropriate because it protects the incompetent and, quite possibly, permits an unacceptable element of the nuclear safety risk to persist.
"Large added: "So much promise was held out for the Astute class of nuclear powered submarine but these faults occurring during its commissioning into active/service, particularly in the propulsion system and its under-performance, suggest that the whole has been cobbled together from some ill-fitting parts – the real concern here is that these or similar mismatches will compromise nuclear safety at risk to crews and the public generally."
Well, another outstanding product from BaE.....
And the Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233843/Ro...
Once again the taxpayer get a very expensive, very useless product from BAE.
Once again the taxpayer get a very expensive, very useless product from BAE.
Fittster said:
And the Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233843/Ro...
Once again the taxpayer get a very expensive, very useless product from BAE.
Don't let the fact that they were actually designed by VSEL get in the way of a good story.Once again the taxpayer get a very expensive, very useless product from BAE.
Bear in mind that:
Nuclear powered submarines are just about the most complex machines that man has so far produced - easily on a par with the Space Shuttle.
Due to a break in submarine production prior to Astute, there were a lot of new people involved and a lot of learning to be done on the first boat. This, combined with a new design, was inevitably going to cause a few problems.
It is usual for first-of-class vessels to have teething troubles. The main purpose of Sea Trials is to sort these out, demonstrate the boat's performance and ensure the crew are fully conversant with their new toy.
The experience gained on Astute has resulted in the second boat, Ambush, having far fewer problems on its Sea Trials (strange that wasn't mentioned anywhere...).
The newspaper report should therefore be taken with a large pinch of salt (unless, of course, you believe everything you read in the papers).
So in summary, mountain out of a molehill.
Nuclear powered submarines are just about the most complex machines that man has so far produced - easily on a par with the Space Shuttle.
Due to a break in submarine production prior to Astute, there were a lot of new people involved and a lot of learning to be done on the first boat. This, combined with a new design, was inevitably going to cause a few problems.
It is usual for first-of-class vessels to have teething troubles. The main purpose of Sea Trials is to sort these out, demonstrate the boat's performance and ensure the crew are fully conversant with their new toy.
The experience gained on Astute has resulted in the second boat, Ambush, having far fewer problems on its Sea Trials (strange that wasn't mentioned anywhere...).
The newspaper report should therefore be taken with a large pinch of salt (unless, of course, you believe everything you read in the papers).
So in summary, mountain out of a molehill.
Well they got the fact that the Astute is a submarine correct, so you have to give them credit for that as for the rest not so much.
Take into account the lack of credible sources and the fact that the guardian wont be happy until the UK armed forces are entirely dismantled let alone their complete hatred for nuclear and its a load of nonsense. The Guardians comment section tells all you need to know about the market it is pandering too.
Edit- Did just have to giggle about a comment that went on a tirade about how each sub cost £10 billion, are entirely pointless until the French finish building our aircraft carrier which cant work because it doesn't hit the 30+ knots required to launch a plane. Well giggle may be too strong considering how many comments on their seem to believe that type of nonsense.
Take into account the lack of credible sources and the fact that the guardian wont be happy until the UK armed forces are entirely dismantled let alone their complete hatred for nuclear and its a load of nonsense. The Guardians comment section tells all you need to know about the market it is pandering too.
Edit- Did just have to giggle about a comment that went on a tirade about how each sub cost £10 billion, are entirely pointless until the French finish building our aircraft carrier which cant work because it doesn't hit the 30+ knots required to launch a plane. Well giggle may be too strong considering how many comments on their seem to believe that type of nonsense.
Edited by Godalmighty83 on Friday 16th November 18:51
karl_h said:
Aren't attack sub top speeds one of the biggest secrets going? I'd be surprised if the Gaurdian did actually have substantiated figures.
Well they couldn't get the speed of the biggest ship we have ever made right (the CVF is neither made for or designed for 30knots) so the chances of getting a accurate claim from a undisclosed source regarding the speed of a uber-secret propulsion system is pretty unlikely.As mentioned, just looks like left-wing white-poppy-wearing pinko propaganda to me. All new engineering systems have problems on trials; that's why they're run. I also reckon a lot of sandal-wearers automatically reckon nuclear submarine=SSBN bringer of intercontinental ballistic death.
Edited by speedtwelve on Friday 16th November 20:18
The Guardian said:
"It would also be incapable of keeping pace with the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers,"
Why exactly would it need to? The carrier group has other ships to search and protect the carrier and things called helicopters to do active sonar searches. The Astute subs are hunter killers, designed to work on their own for months on end usually parked where enemy subs and ships leave port removing the threat before they get near any carrier group.In defence of HMS Astute: the commanding officer's statement
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/16/commandin...
Baldrick!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/16/commandin...
Baldrick!!
Wonder what the guardian will make of this invite:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/16/astute-se...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/16/astute-se...
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff