high seas collision - who's in the wrong then?
Discussion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFWHlFZEm3M&sns...
sailing vessel on starboard tack vs fishing boat not fishing.
sailing vessel on starboard tack vs fishing boat not fishing.
I understand the fishing vessel had no-one on the bridge so was effectively out of control.
Not sure how easy it is to crash course change in a square rigger, but maybe they could have let the sheets fly and round up into the wind?
Had the impact been amidships it could have been nasty.
Not sure how easy it is to crash course change in a square rigger, but maybe they could have let the sheets fly and round up into the wind?
Had the impact been amidships it could have been nasty.
Port vs starboard doesnt even come into play here..
Power gives way to sail unless the power has restricted manouverbilty due to towing navigational reasons.
Had the fishing boat been in the process of trawling then port vs starboard would have come in to play.
However, as it appears the sailing vessel took no avoiding action it could be deemed that they were partly liable and therefore might have to co-fund the damages.
That said the trawler pleaded guilty so fair play to him.
Power gives way to sail unless the power has restricted manouverbilty due to towing navigational reasons.
Had the fishing boat been in the process of trawling then port vs starboard would have come in to play.
However, as it appears the sailing vessel took no avoiding action it could be deemed that they were partly liable and therefore might have to co-fund the damages.
That said the trawler pleaded guilty so fair play to him.
Edited by Marcellus on Thursday 28th March 18:08
Ayahuasca said:
I understand the fishing vessel had no-one on the bridge so was effectively out of control.
Not sure how easy it is to crash course change in a square rigger, but maybe they could have let the sheets fly and round up into the wind?
Had the impact been amidships it could have been nasty.
But if he'd tried to round up, they probably would still have hit.Not sure how easy it is to crash course change in a square rigger, but maybe they could have let the sheets fly and round up into the wind?
Had the impact been amidships it could have been nasty.
The other sailing option would be to try to go round the stern of the trawler, but that would have meant a gybe (if the wind is where I think it is).
The third option would have been to start the donk and go full astern. I have no idea how long it would take to get the way off something that big though.
Apart from his five blasts, and he was still giving the horn the beans after they'd hit, I'm not sure what else he could have done.
Judging by the relative lack of damage to the sailing vessel had the trawler started to tack immediate avoiding action by turning to starboard when the sailing vessel started to sound its horn the the collision could have been avoided, the last minute reverse power almost brought it to a halt as it was.
Riff Raff said:
Ayahuasca said:
I understand the fishing vessel had no-one on the bridge so was effectively out of control.
Not sure how easy it is to crash course change in a square rigger, but maybe they could have let the sheets fly and round up into the wind?
Had the impact been amidships it could have been nasty.
But if he'd tried to round up, they probably would still have hit.Not sure how easy it is to crash course change in a square rigger, but maybe they could have let the sheets fly and round up into the wind?
Had the impact been amidships it could have been nasty.
The other sailing option would be to try to go round the stern of the trawler, but that would have meant a gybe (if the wind is where I think it is).
The third option would have been to start the donk and go full astern. I have no idea how long it would take to get the way off something that big though.
Apart from his five blasts, and he was still giving the horn the beans after they'd hit, I'm not sure what else he could have done.
Vipers said:
From the fishing boat standpoint, "If a ship dead ahead, starboard wheel and show your red", so the fishing boat seeing (or not as the case may be if the bridge was unmanned) a ship ahead should have turned to Starboard.
Fishing boat in the wrong.
Agree. From my very limited understanding of sailing, if the sailboat had turned to starboard it would have lost the wind and slowed to a dead stop pretty quickly. The person at the helm would have had a choice of either turning and stopping, which would have possibly left the boat right in the path of the trawler or carrying on. Looking at the way the trawler hit at the very back of the boat I think the correct call was made there; it looks like a hard turn to starboard was made at the last moment too. Fishing boat in the wrong.
IanMorewood said:
Marcellus said:
Power gives way to sail .....
That's the theory at least although I wouldn't test it out Tanker -v- Dinghy.As I understand it now, no craft actually has "right of way" there is now "give way vessel" and "stand on vessel" to avoid these cases if sailors blindly saying "power gives way to sail so I held my course"
Marcellus said:
IanMorewood said:
Marcellus said:
Power gives way to sail .....
That's the theory at least although I wouldn't test it out Tanker -v- Dinghy.As I understand it now, no craft actually has "right of way" there is now "give way vessel" and "stand on vessel" to avoid these cases if sailors blindly saying "power gives way to sail so I held my course"
Ayahuasca said:
Riff Raff said:
Ayahuasca said:
I understand the fishing vessel had no-one on the bridge so was effectively out of control.
Not sure how easy it is to crash course change in a square rigger, but maybe they could have let the sheets fly and round up into the wind?
Had the impact been amidships it could have been nasty.
But if he'd tried to round up, they probably would still have hit.Not sure how easy it is to crash course change in a square rigger, but maybe they could have let the sheets fly and round up into the wind?
Had the impact been amidships it could have been nasty.
The other sailing option would be to try to go round the stern of the trawler, but that would have meant a gybe (if the wind is where I think it is).
The third option would have been to start the donk and go full astern. I have no idea how long it would take to get the way off something that big though.
Apart from his five blasts, and he was still giving the horn the beans after they'd hit, I'm not sure what else he could have done.
End result? I have absolutely no idea
(So I can see why the Skipper didn't do it).
Riff Raff said:
How do you work that out? That's a big sailing ship with a trainee crew on board. I have no idea how handy these things are, but I'd imagine not very. It looks like the wind is on the starboard quarter, so what would you do?
I would like to think that by collision - 5 mins that the risk of collision had been identified bearings taken and helmsman and crew boss informed.Collision -4 min: bearings checked risk of collision confirmed helmsman ordered to bear away, whisk set to stand by,
Collision -3 min: bearings checked, risk of collision averted pass astern of fishing boat wisk to off, helmsman orderd to resume course.
Some years offshore Gt Yarmouth on a minesweeper carrying out a search for a mine, a smallish merchant vessel was heading directly for us.
This was broad daylight, we tried to call them on channel 16, we tried calling on a signal light, and we sounded our horn, through binoculars we could see no one on the bridge, we had to take evasive action.
And we wonder why collisions at sea happen.
This was broad daylight, we tried to call them on channel 16, we tried calling on a signal light, and we sounded our horn, through binoculars we could see no one on the bridge, we had to take evasive action.
And we wonder why collisions at sea happen.
Vipers said:
Some years offshore Gt Yarmouth on a minesweeper carrying out a search for a mine, a smallish merchant vessel was heading directly for us.
This was broad daylight, we tried to call them on channel 16, we tried calling on a signal light, and we sounded our horn, through binoculars we could see no one on the bridge, we had to take evasive action.
And we wonder why collisions at sea happen.
Shoot the fecker, I'm sure a couple of rounds of 30mm or 40mm would have woken them up.This was broad daylight, we tried to call them on channel 16, we tried calling on a signal light, and we sounded our horn, through binoculars we could see no one on the bridge, we had to take evasive action.
And we wonder why collisions at sea happen.
The COLREGs require all ships to take necessary action to avoid contact at sea. The fishing vessel is primarily in the wrong for several reasons.
A vessel under power gives way to a vessel under sail under pretty much all circumstances, with the exception of those actually engaged in fishing, towing or otherwise constrained by draught or some other factor. The fishing boat is not fishing, and is just making passage so the sailing ship is stand on vessel.
A vessel approaching the port side of another should alter course to pass astern. Again the sailing vessel is the stand on vessel.
Vessels are required to maintain an adequate watch for other traffic, and the fishing vessel obviously had no one on the bridge, or keeping radio watch so again is at fault.
The only caveat here is that a stand on vessel can't just assume that because he is the stand on vessel he has no obligation to do anything should a collision situation arise - the responsibility is on both parties to take action if possible.
The problem arises because the nature of the sailing ship - they are not very manoeuvrable at the best of times, and making a change of tack requires all hands on deck and considerable time. It is not as simple as just putting the helm across as on a yacht. There is also the consideration of what a stand on vessel is expected to do - the colregs are intended that both parties know what is expected of the other. Deviating from that can cause additional problems.
You could argue that the sailing ship could have altered course, but in order to do so would have had to start the manoeuvre a considerable time before the potential impact. By contrast, the fishing boat could have avoided that collision by making a simple reduction in revs, or a 5-10 degree course alteration to starboard with little impact on its passage.
Most modern radar and AIS sets are able to compute the closest point of approach in terms of distance and time, which provide ample warning of a dangerous situation developing. In addition a square rigged ship with bright green sails is hardly inconspicuous - the fishing boat skipper had no excuse which is why he rightly pleaded guilty.
A vessel under power gives way to a vessel under sail under pretty much all circumstances, with the exception of those actually engaged in fishing, towing or otherwise constrained by draught or some other factor. The fishing boat is not fishing, and is just making passage so the sailing ship is stand on vessel.
A vessel approaching the port side of another should alter course to pass astern. Again the sailing vessel is the stand on vessel.
Vessels are required to maintain an adequate watch for other traffic, and the fishing vessel obviously had no one on the bridge, or keeping radio watch so again is at fault.
The only caveat here is that a stand on vessel can't just assume that because he is the stand on vessel he has no obligation to do anything should a collision situation arise - the responsibility is on both parties to take action if possible.
The problem arises because the nature of the sailing ship - they are not very manoeuvrable at the best of times, and making a change of tack requires all hands on deck and considerable time. It is not as simple as just putting the helm across as on a yacht. There is also the consideration of what a stand on vessel is expected to do - the colregs are intended that both parties know what is expected of the other. Deviating from that can cause additional problems.
You could argue that the sailing ship could have altered course, but in order to do so would have had to start the manoeuvre a considerable time before the potential impact. By contrast, the fishing boat could have avoided that collision by making a simple reduction in revs, or a 5-10 degree course alteration to starboard with little impact on its passage.
Most modern radar and AIS sets are able to compute the closest point of approach in terms of distance and time, which provide ample warning of a dangerous situation developing. In addition a square rigged ship with bright green sails is hardly inconspicuous - the fishing boat skipper had no excuse which is why he rightly pleaded guilty.
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