No flaps, would you say something?

[TheTurbonator]

Delta airlines flight 1141 crashed in 1988, when the crew failed to extend the flaps and slats during take-off. After failing to gain enough speed for a no slats/flats take-off, the crew pitched the plane too steeply and stalled, crashing into a ILS antenna at the end of the runway.

During the investigation it was discovered that the crew had failed to keep a sterile cockpit during the taxi, and became distracted when they were talking about dating habits with the flight attendants of all things. They subsequently forgot to extend the flaps for the correct take-off configuration and also to do the before take-off checklist.

The crew weren't completely to blame though, the horn that is supposed to sound, if the plane is in the wrong configuration when take-off power is applied, failed to sound.

This has got me thinking though, I've always wondered if anybody on the plane noticed that they were trying to take-off with no slats and flaps.

I love planes and jet airliners and it's always been an ambition of mine to be an airline pilot. So I've spent a lot of times using flight simulators on my PC. I don't fly the mickey mouse default aircraft either. I use the PMDG jet aircraft and Carenado prop aircraft, which are supposed to be as realistic as possible.

I've also had several hours worth of flying lessons and was once blessed enough to have a go in Air New Zealand's 737 simulator, where they let me fly a simulated run from one island to the other and then let me take-off and land at Princess Juliana airport.

And I'm also a very frequent flyer.

Despite all that, if I was on flight 1141 and noticed that the flaps and slats weren't extended, I still don't think I would have said anything. I suppose I wouldn't want to get thrown of the plane but mainly because I'd trust the pilots experience more and know that no flaps take-offs are possible. Only when the plane was bouncing on the grass at the end of the runway might I get up and start banging on the cockpit door to extend the flaps.

So would you say anything? I'm interested to know if any commercial pilots on here would say something if they noticed, or if anybody with more knowledge and experience than me would say something?

Sorry for creating the Wiki thread by mistake.

Edited by TheTurbonator on Tuesday 20th August 21:58

Edited by TheTurbonator on Tuesday 20th August 22:06

[anonymous-user]

Some T/O flap setting are slats only depending on the aircraft. It might be quite normal for the flaps not to extend.

[TheTurbonator]

el stovey said:

Some T/O flap setting are slats only depending on the aircraft. It might be quite normal for the flaps not to extend.

The slats are visible identifiable too though, the crew failed to extend both. So would you say anything if you noticed both weren't extended?

[anonymous-user]

TheTurbonator said:

el stovey said:

Some T/O flap setting are slats only depending on the aircraft. It might be quite normal for the flaps not to extend.

The slats are visible identifiable too though, the crew failed to extend both. So would you say anything if you noticed both weren't extended?

Sure but if you were sitting behind the wing, you often wouldn't see the slats.

I've been called up in the past by other aircraft at the holding point telling me I haven't set the T/O flap when it was slat only. Other pilots will usually point out if you're taxying around with landing flap still out or the APU inlet door open before take off etc.

[15peter20]

Difficult one. Aircraft are fitted with an aural config warner which is meant to have stopped this.

But they can be ignored:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPA_Flight_3142

Or not work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022

I think the practicality of getting your message to the flight deck at the late stage of taxi or during line-up would be pretty difficult and wouldn't be welcomed by the cabin crew. Unfortunately, I imagine they would assume you had ill intent, and you could expect a delay to your journey in less than salubrious conditions if you were wrong about the flaps!

Sometimes you've just got to trust the drivers!

[Simpo Two]

TheTurbonator said:

Despite all that, if I was on flight 1141 and noticed that the flaps and slats weren't extended, I still don't think I would have said anything. I suppose I wouldn't want to get thrown of the plane but mainly because I'd trust the pilots experience more

This has been a cause of crashes in the past. The rookie co-pilot realises the captain is doing something wrong, but says nothing - either because he assumes the captain knows something he doesn't, or because he is afraid of retributions. So he keeps quiet and disaster ensues. (David Beatty, The Naked Pilot)

NB: The best example of a careless crash was 'Cheer up' being mistaken for 'Gear up'...

[TTwiggy]

No idea on the OP's question, but I did once tell a crew member on a Thames Clipper that their port nav light wasn't showing.

[jonnyb]

el stovey said:

TheTurbonator said:

el stovey said:

Some T/O flap setting are slats only depending on the aircraft. It might be quite normal for the flaps not to extend.

The slats are visible identifiable too though, the crew failed to extend both. So would you say anything if you noticed both weren't extended?

Sure but if you were sitting behind the wing, you often wouldn't see the slats.

I've been called up in the past by other aircraft at the holding point telling me I haven't set the T/O flap when it was slat only. Other pilots will usually point out if you're taxying around with landing flap still out or the APU inlet door open before take off etc.

We quite often do APU to pack take off. Having to door open should not be a big performance penalty. The only time I have ever called up another aircraft was when it taxied on to the runway to take off with the spoilers up. Apparently its normal on the Dash 8.

Although I think I would call if I saw an aircraft about to take off without flaps being set.

[TheTurbonator]

jonnyb said:

We quite often do APU to pack take off. Having to door open should not be a big performance penalty. The only time I have ever called up another aircraft was when it taxied on to the runway to take off with the spoilers up. Apparently its normal on the Dash 8.

Although I think I would call if I saw an aircraft about to take off without flaps being set.

Would you say something if you were a passenger on the plane though?

[creampuff]

TheTurbonator said:

Would you say something if you were a passenger on the plane though?

If I was a passenger on a 747 about to start a 13 hour flight I'd probably say something.

Otherwise probably not.

But then you would probably be lined up by the time you were sure that the flaps would be out so the practicality of telling the pilots anything if you are a passenger is close to zero.

[Simpo Two]

creampuff said:

But then you would probably be lined up by the time you were sure that the flaps would be out so the practicality of telling the pilots anything if you are a passenger is close to zero.

Rap out a Morse message on the cockpit door...?

Perhaps I've been watching too many Die Hard films....

[DavidJG]

Depends on the aircraft type. Fokker 70 / 100 frequently takes off clean, and only uses flap for landing.

A fully loaded 'heavy' departing for a long haul flight is a different story though!

David

[anonymous-user]

creampuff said:

.....so the practicality of telling the pilots anything if you are a passenger is close to zero.

This.
To "warn" the captain would require a flight attendant to take notice of you dinging the overhead bell thingy, then agree with what you say to the extent that they too feel the skipper needs prompting, then convince the captain to take a call from the cabin phone during the busiest bit of his working day.....not gonna happen.

[TheTurbonator]

Crossflow Kid said:

creampuff said:

.....so the practicality of telling the pilots anything if you are a passenger is close to zero.

This.
To "warn" the captain would require a flight attendant to take notice of you dinging the overhead bell thingy, then agree with what you say to the extent that they too feel the skipper needs prompting, then convince the captain to take a call from the cabin phone during the busiest bit of his working day.....not gonna happen.

Nothing to stop you getting out of your seat though and running to the front and banging on the cockpit door. Would anyone have the balls to do that though, and risk getting thrown off the plane and getting arrested?

[Hugo a Gogo]

or shot

[Chuck328]

TheTurbonator said:

Crossflow Kid said:

creampuff said:

.....so the practicality of telling the pilots anything if you are a passenger is close to zero.

This.
To "warn" the captain would require a flight attendant to take notice of you dinging the overhead bell thingy, then agree with what you say to the extent that they too feel the skipper needs prompting, then convince the captain to take a call from the cabin phone during the busiest bit of his working day.....not gonna happen.

Nothing to stop you getting out of your seat though and running to the front and banging on the cockpit door. Would anyone have the balls to do that though, and risk getting thrown off the plane and getting arrested?

If it were to avoid something like this , too right I'd have a go!

[Kempus]

We take comments from passengers regarding snow and ice on the wing seriously and will go and have a look if not for our own piece of mind, that of the passengers. Social media and YouTube are very powerful things.

With regards to flaps/slats I personally don't know enough about different aircraft types to know what is right and what's wrong. If there was movement from the front or the back of the wing, the sound of the hydraulics I would assume all is fine. That's of course hoping that the correct flap/slat setting are selected in the first place for the conditions present.

On the day it would be a total judgement call in which cabin crew are trained on aircraft control surfaces/lift devices and should be able to recognise if the wing is clean or not so to mention something to them would not be a bad thing.

Oh and also mentioning it on the take off roll not a great idea and if the aircraft is de/anti iced taxi with flaps up to aviod contamination of the flap track fairings is a common practice.