PQ17 An Arctic Convoy Disaster
Discussion
Tonight on BBC2, 9PM.
Quote from online Radio Times.
"Between 1941 and 1945, merchant ships escorted by vessels from the US, Canadian and British navies delivered 4 million tons of essential goods to the Soviet Union. In this documentary, Jeremy Clarkson retraces the journey of the convoy of 35 ships codenamed PQ17 from Iceland to the Russian port of Arkhangelsk in June and July 1942, revealing how the Anglo-American mission became one of the biggest naval disasters of the 20th century. Featuring testimony from men who served on the vessels."
Quote from online Radio Times.
"Between 1941 and 1945, merchant ships escorted by vessels from the US, Canadian and British navies delivered 4 million tons of essential goods to the Soviet Union. In this documentary, Jeremy Clarkson retraces the journey of the convoy of 35 ships codenamed PQ17 from Iceland to the Russian port of Arkhangelsk in June and July 1942, revealing how the Anglo-American mission became one of the biggest naval disasters of the 20th century. Featuring testimony from men who served on the vessels."
AFAIK only lefties don't like him. He's actually a very good journalist, and his documentaries about Brunel and the VC (his father-in-law won the VC) were well done.
NB Did Stalin ever say thanks for all the stuff we sent him? I doubt it. Don't think we got paid either. Smart cookie that Stalin.
NB Did Stalin ever say thanks for all the stuff we sent him? I doubt it. Don't think we got paid either. Smart cookie that Stalin.
Simpo Two said:
NB Did Stalin ever say thanks for all the stuff we sent him? I doubt it. Don't think we got paid either. Smart cookie that Stalin.
The stuff we sent him was used to fight the nazis and help us in our battle by opening a separate front. I think the millions of Russians who lost their lives fighting on that front was thanks enough.LordLoveLength said:
The stuff we sent him was used to fight the nazis and help us in our battle by opening a separate front. I think the millions of Russians who lost their lives fighting on that front was thanks enough.
I'm perfectly aware of the situation. What percentage of the total Russian war effort arrived in Archangel? I suggest the convoys were as much political as military. The 'separate front' you mention was opened by Hitler in 1941; you may mean the 'second front' which was opened mostly by the Americans in 1944.Dad was on those convoys on HMS Dido.
Says that when he got to Archangel and took a stroll dockside, they were coralled by Russian soldiers who kept a very tight rein on where they could go.
They didnt seem very grateful
Also did a stint up in Alexandria as an MP. Rode his bike up the arse of one of his ghillys as they were praying one day.
He also was off watch when KGVI was on board the Dido and him and a few mates were having a quick smoke around the back of the forefunnel ( he pointed out the exact spot on the model of the Dido that is on HMS Belfast). KGVI came round the corner in all his Admirals finery to find several greasy engineroom matelots. Dad said he just stood there with his jaw like a Loony tunes cartoon and stuttered for several seconds 'C-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-carry on' before disappearing fast in the diection of the bridge. All that good work depicted in 'The Kings Speech' undone in nano-seconds
Says that when he got to Archangel and took a stroll dockside, they were coralled by Russian soldiers who kept a very tight rein on where they could go.
They didnt seem very grateful
Also did a stint up in Alexandria as an MP. Rode his bike up the arse of one of his ghillys as they were praying one day.
He also was off watch when KGVI was on board the Dido and him and a few mates were having a quick smoke around the back of the forefunnel ( he pointed out the exact spot on the model of the Dido that is on HMS Belfast). KGVI came round the corner in all his Admirals finery to find several greasy engineroom matelots. Dad said he just stood there with his jaw like a Loony tunes cartoon and stuttered for several seconds 'C-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-carry on' before disappearing fast in the diection of the bridge. All that good work depicted in 'The Kings Speech' undone in nano-seconds
An excellent book on the Artic convoys is this:
Forgotten Sacrifice: The Arctic Convoys of World War II (General Military) by Michael G Walling http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009ASFBCA/ref=cm_sw_r_...
It's only £1.09 in the Kindle store. The amount of equipment (trucks, tanks and aircraft ) lost when ships were sunk is staggering
Forgotten Sacrifice: The Arctic Convoys of World War II (General Military) by Michael G Walling http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009ASFBCA/ref=cm_sw_r_...
It's only £1.09 in the Kindle store. The amount of equipment (trucks, tanks and aircraft ) lost when ships were sunk is staggering
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I shall be looking forward to this. I just hope Clarkson doesn't cock it up.
My Grandfather commanded a Corvette (and later a Flotilla of them) on the Arctic Convoys so I have a vested interest.
My Grandfather was a Lieutenant on a Corvette during the latter two years of the war (dunno what the command structure was like on the smaller ships so I'm not sure where this put him in terms of seniority) - HMS Pevensey Castle. Yours? My Grandfather commanded a Corvette (and later a Flotilla of them) on the Arctic Convoys so I have a vested interest.
Big News said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I shall be looking forward to this. I just hope Clarkson doesn't cock it up.
My Grandfather commanded a Corvette (and later a Flotilla of them) on the Arctic Convoys so I have a vested interest.
My Grandfather was a Lieutenant on a Corvette during the latter two years of the war (dunno what the command structure was like on the smaller ships so I'm not sure where this put him in terms of seniority) - HMS Pevensey Castle. Yours? My Grandfather commanded a Corvette (and later a Flotilla of them) on the Arctic Convoys so I have a vested interest.
I thought it was a good programme, though rather weighted to the splendid fellow with the trawler.
The convoy system was proven to be better than single ships, but with that weight of attackers I'm not sure the convoy would have fared much better even if it had stayed together.
http://uboat.net/ops/convoys/pq-17.htm
It seems Pound was beyond the ability to make sound decisions, but even if that was known, I expect no-one dared say so. Tirpitz was a constant albeit unknown risk, therefore make your decision before you sail not afterwards. Ironically it was the Scharnhorst that eventually did the damage.
What happened to the refugees on Novaya Zemlya - how were they rescued?
Sad to see three of the veteran contributors died so recently; we must find their stories while we can.
The convoy system was proven to be better than single ships, but with that weight of attackers I'm not sure the convoy would have fared much better even if it had stayed together.
http://uboat.net/ops/convoys/pq-17.htm
It seems Pound was beyond the ability to make sound decisions, but even if that was known, I expect no-one dared say so. Tirpitz was a constant albeit unknown risk, therefore make your decision before you sail not afterwards. Ironically it was the Scharnhorst that eventually did the damage.
What happened to the refugees on Novaya Zemlya - how were they rescued?
Sad to see three of the veteran contributors died so recently; we must find their stories while we can.
Big News said:
My Grandfather was a Lieutenant on a Corvette during the latter two years of the war (dunno what the command structure was like on the smaller ships so I'm not sure where this put him in terms of seniority) - HMS Pevensey Castle. Yours?
Flower Class Corvettes.My GranDa Commanded HMS Chrysanthemum. I remember him telling me about the Arctic runs when I was a young teenager (he died when I was 18) and how proud he was to have done so.
I remember him telling me how ships would ice their top hamper so fast they would just turn turtle and sink.
It scared me so much that I have never wanted to go to sea!
Good programme, there were a couple of minor inaccuracies like Clarkson saying that he'd never consider entering an ice field on a trawler, whilst steaming into an ice field on a trawler, but otherwise pretty good.
The decision to split the convoy really highlights the paranoia that the German capital ships generated and show the damage they were capable of inflicting even when they were tied up alongside.
Did you know that once they were in a lifeboat the crew stopped getting paid as they we're no longer classed as being on board?
Good to see the convoy boys finally getting the recognition they deserve!
The decision to split the convoy really highlights the paranoia that the German capital ships generated and show the damage they were capable of inflicting even when they were tied up alongside.
Did you know that once they were in a lifeboat the crew stopped getting paid as they we're no longer classed as being on board?
Good to see the convoy boys finally getting the recognition they deserve!
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