What is it with the Herkybird drivers?
Discussion
We're sat in the middle of a low-fly zone which is lovely and get all sorts of exciting things charging around at low level throughout the day (and very occasionally at night). Loads of Chinooks and Hawks, many Apaches, quite a lot of Lynx and Merlins, airshow traffic in season, and then the infrequent visitations from Typhoons et al.
But why oh why are the lowest things always the Hercules? The Hawks are sometimes bonkers, the Chinooks always sound like they're parked on your head even when they're at 1000ft, but the Hercules... good god they're insane. Low enough that you don't hear them coming until they pop up over the ridge, then they invariably slam themselves back down into the dirt and hammer off into the distance before popping up over the next ridge.
Just had a pair over about 30 mins ago, nose to tail with barely 5 or 6 lengths between them.
Love it!
But why oh why are the lowest things always the Hercules? The Hawks are sometimes bonkers, the Chinooks always sound like they're parked on your head even when they're at 1000ft, but the Hercules... good god they're insane. Low enough that you don't hear them coming until they pop up over the ridge, then they invariably slam themselves back down into the dirt and hammer off into the distance before popping up over the next ridge.
Just had a pair over about 30 mins ago, nose to tail with barely 5 or 6 lengths between them.
Love it!
Because they can?
('spect GG15G to pop along soon and enlighten us)
TBH if they have to do tactical low flying, being as they are bloody big I 'spect they need to be mega low just to stay out of the opposition's AK sights if possible
Lucky to be able to enjoy the show, any pictures? Herky flying away into the distance no doubt...
('spect GG15G to pop along soon and enlighten us)
TBH if they have to do tactical low flying, being as they are bloody big I 'spect they need to be mega low just to stay out of the opposition's AK sights if possible
Lucky to be able to enjoy the show, any pictures? Herky flying away into the distance no doubt...
whiteonyx said:
Buccaneer pilots had to gain altitude to lower their undercarriges!
indisputable proof your talking boulux.... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVQe0O6GT-0
whiteonyx said:
Buccaneer pilots had to gain altitude to lower their undercarriges!
One of the fathers friends used to work at Lossiemouth patching Buccaneers up, I recall him rattling off a list of things they'd cleaned off the bottom of them, including heather, grass and mud! Clearly some low flying involved to get Mud your plane!He had a piece of engine intake duct with the perfect outline of a pigeon bent into it, claimed he was going to use it as a terrine mould for pigeon pate :-)
Routine low level flying by the C130 force in the 20 Low Flying Areas (LFAs) of the UK Low Flying System (UKLFS) is down to 250ft MSD (Minimum Separation Distance), the same as any other Military fixed wing a/c.
Note: MSD is a 'bubble' of free air 250ft around the a/c that you are not allowed to encroach. So, for example, if you were 250ft above the ground and you came across power lines 50ft high, then you would have to climb by 50ft to maintain MSD.
I am regularly told by people who have seen Albert at low level that the a/c was "far lower than any fast jet", that the a/c was "flying as low as 50ft" but it just isn't true. The reason that people think that the C130s are lower than they actually are is because a Hercules is a lot bigger than a fast jet so, based upon people's expectations, it presents the illusion of being lower than it actually is.
There are, however, two exceptions to the 250ft MSD rule:
Firstly OLF (Operational Low Flying) may be carried out down to 150ft MSD but only in the 3 Tactical Training Areas (TTAs) and only when OLF training is pre-scheduled. The TTAs are: LFA7(T) in Central Wales, LFA14(T) in Northern Scitland, and LFA20(T) in the Scottish Borders.
Secondly, certain areas are designated as DZs (Drop Zones), eg Fox Covert on Salisbury Plain, where the a/c may be authorised to operate lower for a DZ inspection post airdrop. AFAIK ULLA (ULtra Low Level Airdrop has not been carried out by the C130 force in 20+ years.
Note: MSD is a 'bubble' of free air 250ft around the a/c that you are not allowed to encroach. So, for example, if you were 250ft above the ground and you came across power lines 50ft high, then you would have to climb by 50ft to maintain MSD.
I am regularly told by people who have seen Albert at low level that the a/c was "far lower than any fast jet", that the a/c was "flying as low as 50ft" but it just isn't true. The reason that people think that the C130s are lower than they actually are is because a Hercules is a lot bigger than a fast jet so, based upon people's expectations, it presents the illusion of being lower than it actually is.
There are, however, two exceptions to the 250ft MSD rule:
Firstly OLF (Operational Low Flying) may be carried out down to 150ft MSD but only in the 3 Tactical Training Areas (TTAs) and only when OLF training is pre-scheduled. The TTAs are: LFA7(T) in Central Wales, LFA14(T) in Northern Scitland, and LFA20(T) in the Scottish Borders.
Secondly, certain areas are designated as DZs (Drop Zones), eg Fox Covert on Salisbury Plain, where the a/c may be authorised to operate lower for a DZ inspection post airdrop. AFAIK ULLA (ULtra Low Level Airdrop has not been carried out by the C130 force in 20+ years.
EskimoArapaho said:
With Hercules pilots, it's probably some existential mid-life crisis thing.
Yes of course it is! Silly me thinking it might actually be a Training/Operational requirement for crews to be able to operate at low level.Cheers GGG, appreciate the extra info.
Happy to take your word on it, though I remain somewhat convinced that a handful seem to be missing a digit or two off their op mins!
As I mentioned above, I tend to try and judge on height off treetops rather than just on fuselage, but I'm sure you're right.
I've just been flicking through this which has me highly amused, and has both of our local landmarks on it!
Happy to take your word on it, though I remain somewhat convinced that a handful seem to be missing a digit or two off their op mins!
As I mentioned above, I tend to try and judge on height off treetops rather than just on fuselage, but I'm sure you're right.
I've just been flicking through this which has me highly amused, and has both of our local landmarks on it!
Edited by RedLeicester on Friday 17th January 11:59
Everyone accepts that when you attempt to fly visually at 250ft MSD there will be the odd excursion lower. However the trick is to recognise this and deal with it in a timely and reasonable manner. Failure to do so on a check ride, for example, could/would result in the removal of one's low lying category and possibly result in re-training.
When I was on the Herc Force there was an SOP (Standard Operating procedure) for operating at low level:
Firstly we would set the Radalt(s) (Radio Altimeter) to 200ft. Secondly we would set the Baro-alts (Barometric Altimeters) to whatever the RPS (Regional pressure Setting) was for that area for that time period (RPS is the Lowest Forecast barometric pressure adjusted to sea level for the next hour), because that would give us height above sea level which would become a player for terrain avoidance (Safety Altitude) if we had to pull out of low level and into cloud.
We would then operate visually at low level by 'setting the 250ft picture' and cross referencing with the Radalt(s).
The Radalt would also produce an audible 'tone' on the intercomm if it reached the target height (200ft in this case). If you heard the tone you immediately pulled up.
When I was on the Herc Force there was an SOP (Standard Operating procedure) for operating at low level:
Firstly we would set the Radalt(s) (Radio Altimeter) to 200ft. Secondly we would set the Baro-alts (Barometric Altimeters) to whatever the RPS (Regional pressure Setting) was for that area for that time period (RPS is the Lowest Forecast barometric pressure adjusted to sea level for the next hour), because that would give us height above sea level which would become a player for terrain avoidance (Safety Altitude) if we had to pull out of low level and into cloud.
We would then operate visually at low level by 'setting the 250ft picture' and cross referencing with the Radalt(s).
The Radalt would also produce an audible 'tone' on the intercomm if it reached the target height (200ft in this case). If you heard the tone you immediately pulled up.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
EskimoArapaho said:
With Hercules pilots, it's probably some existential mid-life crisis thing.
Yes of course it is! Silly me thinking it might actually be a Training/Operational requirement for crews to be able to operate at low level.
EskimoArapaho said:
With Hercules pilots, it's probably some existential mid-life crisis thing. The ones I met (a long time ago, mind) were all rather old compared to the young pups throwing the jets around.
Rubbish, I'd give both of my b
ks to fly heavy lift for the raf and if I was in my 30s/40s still flying I'd be more than happy, I guess the experience from years of flying means you will be able to handle the plane better?Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Everyone accepts that when you attempt to fly visually at 250ft MSD there will be the odd excursion lower. However the trick is to recognise this and deal with it in a timely and reasonable manner. Failure to do so on a check ride, for example, could/would result in the removal of one's low lying category and possibly result in re-training.
Most around here, especially me, love it so no complaints at this end! Two or three times a year there's someone being cheeky but even then it's just another thrill rather than grumbling. It suspect it helps being surrounded by arable farms rather than those worried about livestock.Mojocvh said:
whiteonyx said:
Buccaneer pilots had to gain altitude to lower their undercarriges!
indisputable proof your talking boulux.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVQe0O6GT-0
Got to say the middle "seats" on a Herky bird are the most uncomfortable I have ever experienced and always made sure I sat on the side after that first flight. No complaints on the flying though even when doing the plummet to earth AKA tactical landing.
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