Red Diesel In Boats
Discussion
Willy Nilly said:
Can you use red diesel in pleasure boats?
HMRC/the VAT Commissioners lot will provide absolute confirmation free. I doubt it because presumably you are offering these boats for hire? If they are private boats I think you can but HMRC/VAT are the experts and generally helpful.Yes you can.
In the UK we have a rather strange system. You fill boats with red diesel and pay duty on the fuel. However fuel used for anything other than propulsion - generators, heating and so on is propulsion duty free. So, when you fill up you have to make a declaration of how much of the fuel is for propulsion and how much non propulsion. You can declare any percentage you like including 100% non propulsion. However at 100% non propulsion you would have a difficult time persuading the authorities you hadn't lied.
To make things easy the Vat man or woman has said he, or indeed she will accept a 60:40 split in favour of propulsion without looking too hard. If you have neither a generator nor heating on board then really you should declare 100% propulsion but few if any do.
So the actual colour of the diesel is immaterial. Of more importance is being able to say where it was purchased and how much duty was paid. You can have fully duty paid red diesel.
At no point however can you use red diesel in non agricultural road going vehicles regardless of whether duty has been paid or not.
In the UK we have a rather strange system. You fill boats with red diesel and pay duty on the fuel. However fuel used for anything other than propulsion - generators, heating and so on is propulsion duty free. So, when you fill up you have to make a declaration of how much of the fuel is for propulsion and how much non propulsion. You can declare any percentage you like including 100% non propulsion. However at 100% non propulsion you would have a difficult time persuading the authorities you hadn't lied.
To make things easy the Vat man or woman has said he, or indeed she will accept a 60:40 split in favour of propulsion without looking too hard. If you have neither a generator nor heating on board then really you should declare 100% propulsion but few if any do.
So the actual colour of the diesel is immaterial. Of more importance is being able to say where it was purchased and how much duty was paid. You can have fully duty paid red diesel.
At no point however can you use red diesel in non agricultural road going vehicles regardless of whether duty has been paid or not.
Long gone are the days of filling up at 24p a litre.
Perfect summary from Henry F.
Its worth adding, that it depends where you fill and how well you know the fuel pontoon staff, some are reluctant to sell fuel at less than 60% duty, while others are reluctant to collect duty for Georgy Boy.
Perfect summary from Henry F.
Its worth adding, that it depends where you fill and how well you know the fuel pontoon staff, some are reluctant to sell fuel at less than 60% duty, while others are reluctant to collect duty for Georgy Boy.
Henry-F said:
Yes you can.
In the UK we have a rather strange system. You fill boats with red diesel and pay duty on the fuel. However fuel used for anything other than propulsion - generators, heating and so on is propulsion duty free. So, when you fill up you have to make a declaration of how much of the fuel is for propulsion and how much non propulsion. You can declare any percentage you like including 100% non propulsion. However at 100% non propulsion you would have a difficult time persuading the authorities you hadn't lied.
To make things easy the Vat man or woman has said he, or indeed she will accept a 60:40 split in favour of propulsion without looking too hard. If you have neither a generator nor heating on board then really you should declare 100% propulsion but few if any do.
So the actual colour of the diesel is immaterial. Of more importance is being able to say where it was purchased and how much duty was paid. You can have fully duty paid red diesel.
At no point however can you use red diesel in non agricultural road going vehicles regardless of whether duty has been paid or not.
so should fuel for generators in the home be duty free?In the UK we have a rather strange system. You fill boats with red diesel and pay duty on the fuel. However fuel used for anything other than propulsion - generators, heating and so on is propulsion duty free. So, when you fill up you have to make a declaration of how much of the fuel is for propulsion and how much non propulsion. You can declare any percentage you like including 100% non propulsion. However at 100% non propulsion you would have a difficult time persuading the authorities you hadn't lied.
To make things easy the Vat man or woman has said he, or indeed she will accept a 60:40 split in favour of propulsion without looking too hard. If you have neither a generator nor heating on board then really you should declare 100% propulsion but few if any do.
So the actual colour of the diesel is immaterial. Of more importance is being able to say where it was purchased and how much duty was paid. You can have fully duty paid red diesel.
At no point however can you use red diesel in non agricultural road going vehicles regardless of whether duty has been paid or not.
Henry-F said:
At no point however can you use red diesel in non agricultural road going vehicles regardless of whether duty has been paid or not.
Actually you can. With certain provisos. This became apparent in the 'fuel strikes'. If you have no other reasonable option you can use red diesel, but must inform and pay the duty as soon as possible, and have a good reason for using red - extreme weather, strikes, etc.What to do about having traces of red in your fuel system is not entirely clear - having documentation for using red and paying the tax will be good, as long as the piss is not suspected of being taken....
Hi from Guernsey.What about that guy that positioned his boat offshore to sell booze a few years ago, did the wheels come off that in the end?
So, assuming the same principles, how far off the coast of mainland UK would you have to be, in a fuel-storing barge, to sell diesel duty free and get away with it?
So, assuming the same principles, how far off the coast of mainland UK would you have to be, in a fuel-storing barge, to sell diesel duty free and get away with it?
Oh, in the early days, I remember pleading 95% heating/propulsion as that's what the retailer (West Cowes) told me was acceptable. It was a small yacht with diesel heating, I have no idea what proportion we actually used. How are you supposed to know this anyway? Surely it's impossible to even guess?!
Sealine South said:
Yes you can. I must fill several boats a month. Its legal. You pay duty but not all of it. 60:40 split is correct
Not necessarily, you can actually declare your own split depending on your usage. However most places got with the 60:40 split as it's too much of a faff to work the duty out each time.IIRC, it was Europe who insisted on getting rid of red diesel for boats and our Government was against it but had to comply. In reality no one will ever check that the split you declare is what your actually using and indeed if red diesel is being used.
You are correct that the removal of derogation was down to Europe rather than our government.
Red diesel has existed for our boats since the 30's probably as a result of being an island nation but it is unclear where it actualy started. Stories abounded that it was a gift from the nation as a result of the little ships at Dunkirk but I think that was started to add an emotional side to our argument.
Brussle dictated to us that we had to raise the duty of fuel for pleasure navigation with end dates that they were due to enforce.
HMRC were left with a problem in that to accord with Brussels they either had to maintain a differing level of atxation for the same product, force every marine fuel station in the country to carry both red and white or come up with a scheme of rebate for commercial use if they forced every pump to go white.
Power generation and heating etc were still able to be run on the lower taxation diesel. So different products would entail boat owners having to install seperate tanks for each.
Rebates they argued were open to abuse so then safety became the biggest concern.
You can't force marine fuelling stations to sell anything in particular and the result would likely be a reduction in places available to refuel, both commercial and pleasure.
Imagine being a pleasure craft around our coast and their being no diesel available that you could legally put in the tank.
So the onus as usual was placed on the end user to self declare.
The reality is that HMRC believe it is more of an effing nuisance to police than what it is worth so gave a guideline that if a declaration was 60:40 they really wouldnt bother looking.
This was taken by the seller in different ways. Firstly some of them thought they would be liable for any underpayment so stuck with the rule of thumb 60:40 some preferring not to service commercials at all and others that went the other way and said the sale of pleasure craft fuel was too much buggeration to be bothered with so either sell red or white at standard duty rate. Hence Simpo paying over the odds or being refused fuel at all.
Then to top it off our European partners started the threat that any boat found in their waters with red diesel would be impounded and HMRC advised that if travelling abroad to make sure they kept a full trail of fuel purchases. This hasn't been tested yet as someone politely pointed out that visiting boats from their countries may well be told to do one if needing fuel over here.
So red diesel in boats, 100% yes and our lot really don't care what you declare or not but some busy body in Brussels does and the occasional interfering busy body on your local marina will no doubt stick their nose where it isn't wanted as well.
Take your boat into Europe and expect at some time to be boarded and asked for ever single bit of paper relating to the sale of the boat, what it is fuelled with, RCD papers, your certificates of competence to be helming the vessel, what make of antifoul you have used and the colour of your wife's knickers before being approved for onward travel. They really do hate us.
Red diesel has existed for our boats since the 30's probably as a result of being an island nation but it is unclear where it actualy started. Stories abounded that it was a gift from the nation as a result of the little ships at Dunkirk but I think that was started to add an emotional side to our argument.
Brussle dictated to us that we had to raise the duty of fuel for pleasure navigation with end dates that they were due to enforce.
HMRC were left with a problem in that to accord with Brussels they either had to maintain a differing level of atxation for the same product, force every marine fuel station in the country to carry both red and white or come up with a scheme of rebate for commercial use if they forced every pump to go white.
Power generation and heating etc were still able to be run on the lower taxation diesel. So different products would entail boat owners having to install seperate tanks for each.
Rebates they argued were open to abuse so then safety became the biggest concern.
You can't force marine fuelling stations to sell anything in particular and the result would likely be a reduction in places available to refuel, both commercial and pleasure.
Imagine being a pleasure craft around our coast and their being no diesel available that you could legally put in the tank.
So the onus as usual was placed on the end user to self declare.
The reality is that HMRC believe it is more of an effing nuisance to police than what it is worth so gave a guideline that if a declaration was 60:40 they really wouldnt bother looking.
This was taken by the seller in different ways. Firstly some of them thought they would be liable for any underpayment so stuck with the rule of thumb 60:40 some preferring not to service commercials at all and others that went the other way and said the sale of pleasure craft fuel was too much buggeration to be bothered with so either sell red or white at standard duty rate. Hence Simpo paying over the odds or being refused fuel at all.
Then to top it off our European partners started the threat that any boat found in their waters with red diesel would be impounded and HMRC advised that if travelling abroad to make sure they kept a full trail of fuel purchases. This hasn't been tested yet as someone politely pointed out that visiting boats from their countries may well be told to do one if needing fuel over here.
So red diesel in boats, 100% yes and our lot really don't care what you declare or not but some busy body in Brussels does and the occasional interfering busy body on your local marina will no doubt stick their nose where it isn't wanted as well.
Take your boat into Europe and expect at some time to be boarded and asked for ever single bit of paper relating to the sale of the boat, what it is fuelled with, RCD papers, your certificates of competence to be helming the vessel, what make of antifoul you have used and the colour of your wife's knickers before being approved for onward travel. They really do hate us.
While some places might tell you that you should declare 60:40, it is up to the skipper to declare whatever percentage they like and it's not the retailers place to question them.
Where I work, every customer purchasing diesel has to fill in a declaration form which, from time to time, are taken away by HMRC. Every month we tell HMRC how much diesel (domestic and propulsion) we have dispensed and to how many customers. At the end of the year we tell them how much was domestic and how much was propulsion and we pay the tax accordingly.
The diesel is known as Red diesel but it now contains a certain percentage of Bio additive. It is still dyed red.
The HMRC page; http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/drafts/pp-craft-tiin.pdf
Where I work, every customer purchasing diesel has to fill in a declaration form which, from time to time, are taken away by HMRC. Every month we tell HMRC how much diesel (domestic and propulsion) we have dispensed and to how many customers. At the end of the year we tell them how much was domestic and how much was propulsion and we pay the tax accordingly.
The diesel is known as Red diesel but it now contains a certain percentage of Bio additive. It is still dyed red.
The HMRC page; http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/drafts/pp-craft-tiin.pdf
MOTORVATOR said:
Firstly some of them thought they would be liable for any underpayment so stuck with the rule of thumb 60:40 some preferring not to service commercials at all and others that went the other way and said the sale of pleasure craft fuel was too much buggeration to be bothered with so either sell red or white at standard duty rate. Hence Simpo paying over the odds or being refused fuel at all.
To be fair they ask me what proportion I want, and then sit down with a calcuator and work it out, and out it in their little spreadsheet, and then I have to sign a declaration that that proportion is used for heating. After all much of the power the engine is dissipated as heat 
Using actual red diesel isn't an option unless you know someone who has some and is prepared to sell it to you and you can lug 20 gallons to the waterside somehow. I score 0/3 on that.
MOTORVATOR said:
Take your boat into Europe and expect at some time to be boarded and asked for ever single bit of paper relating to the sale of the boat, what it is fuelled with, RCD papers, your certificates of competence to be helming the vessel, what make of antifoul you have used and the colour of your wife's knickers before being approved for onward travel. They really do hate us.
If I ever venture there I shall call my boat 'Oran' and make some fake guns out of drainpipe...b
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