MH370 Black box retrival
Discussion
I keep hearing on the news how difficult it will be to find MH370's black box and then wonder if this would be that difficult for military submarine to detect with their ultra sensitive listening equipment, the likes of which are told can here a sardine farting 500 miles away(you get the idea). Surely a device actively sending out a signal wouldn't be that hard to detect. I realize no navy would want to admit to having submarines in the area, but surely any information could be got to the relevant authorities through 'back channels'.
wolfracesonic said:
I realize no navy would want to admit to having submarines in the area, but surely any information could be got to the relevant authorities through 'back channels'.
Bearing in mind the first part of your statement, how d'you know the latter hasn't already happened?It seems a valid question to me. Retrieving the boxes is quite a different technical task from tracing the aeroplane or looking for floating wreckage.
If it took 2 years for the Air France boxes to be recovered then perhaps the subs are only tuned into sardine farts. Or maybe they found them on day two but kept it quiet for two years so as not to seem too clever.
If it took 2 years for the Air France boxes to be recovered then perhaps the subs are only tuned into sardine farts. Or maybe they found them on day two but kept it quiet for two years so as not to seem too clever.
Boatbuoy said:
Eric Mc said:
Why a new thread?
If duplication of threads on PH concerns you Eric, may I suggest you never look in the TVR Cerbera section. Pretty much every week there's a new thread started on AJP V8's Vs Speed 6 engines!!!!Simpo did start a thread in this section a few days ago (hoping for less "woo woo" silliness I expect compared to the main thread in the "News" section) but his thread seems to have vanished.
I suspect it's been abducted by aliens.
wolfracesonic said:
I keep hearing on the news how difficult it will be to find MH370's black box and then wonder if this would be that difficult for military submarine to detect with their ultra sensitive listening equipment, the likes of which are told can here a sardine farting 500 miles away(you get the idea). Surely a device actively sending out a signal wouldn't be that hard to detect. I realize no navy would want to admit to having submarines in the area, but surely any information could be got to the relevant authorities through 'back channels'.
On one of the BBC web pages on this yesterday, the journo speculated that it was very likely that one or more nations with 'Hunter Killer' type subs may have already dispatched a Sub to the area because of this.However, it was also pointed out that this area of ocean floor has never even been properly mapped or surveyed so and with the potential depths that could be involved the task will be much harder than the recover of the AF447 data recorders - and that took 2 years and they had a rough idea of where that went in....!!
My guess is we'll never really know what happened and why with this incident.
Eric Mc said:
Simpo did start a thread in this section a few days ago (hoping for less "woo woo" silliness I expect compared to the main thread in the "News" section) but his thread seems to have vanished.
I hadn't been looking for it, but if a mod has deleted it it would have been courteous of them to tell me when it happened and why.To grossly over simplify:
1. There aren't that many nuclear submarines in the world we only have around half a dozen available at any point in time. The US only has 40 something vessels with probably 30 or so active at any point in time.
2. The nearest sub is probably thousands of miles away and in all likelihood if it is deployed it is probably doing something important. The nearest based one is probably in China.
3. Given what is happening in Crimea I suspect that the navies who own nuclear subs are probably against deploying the boats they have in high readiness to one of the most remote places in the world.
4. They only definitively located the area of search a few days ago it would have been a wild goose chase until this point in time.
5. At 30knots they only cover 720nm per day even the closest boat would take over a week to get there. Given the constraints previously mentioned it is likely that the black box will have run out of batteries before the sub can be prepared, travel to the site and conduct a search.
6. The black box will not be emitting a very loud noise as it must have a pretty weak sound generator to allow it to run for several weeks. Also phenomenon such as thermocline might mean that the sound does propagate that well on the surface. Subs don't go that deep relative to the ocean depths.
7: Once they have an approximate location for the black box they could potentially use sonar buoys dropped by the maritime patrol aircraft searching for the plane. This would be a lot quicker and cheaper than a sub.
1. There aren't that many nuclear submarines in the world we only have around half a dozen available at any point in time. The US only has 40 something vessels with probably 30 or so active at any point in time.
2. The nearest sub is probably thousands of miles away and in all likelihood if it is deployed it is probably doing something important. The nearest based one is probably in China.
3. Given what is happening in Crimea I suspect that the navies who own nuclear subs are probably against deploying the boats they have in high readiness to one of the most remote places in the world.
4. They only definitively located the area of search a few days ago it would have been a wild goose chase until this point in time.
5. At 30knots they only cover 720nm per day even the closest boat would take over a week to get there. Given the constraints previously mentioned it is likely that the black box will have run out of batteries before the sub can be prepared, travel to the site and conduct a search.
6. The black box will not be emitting a very loud noise as it must have a pretty weak sound generator to allow it to run for several weeks. Also phenomenon such as thermocline might mean that the sound does propagate that well on the surface. Subs don't go that deep relative to the ocean depths.
7: Once they have an approximate location for the black box they could potentially use sonar buoys dropped by the maritime patrol aircraft searching for the plane. This would be a lot quicker and cheaper than a sub.
Talksteer said:
2. The nearest sub is probably thousands of miles away and in all likelihood if it is deployed it is probably doing something important. The nearest based one is probably in China.
The speculation in the media, was that as well as the reasons you've stated, it would be primarily the fact that as the majority of the PAX were Chinese, it was likely that it would be the Chinese that might send a Sub down.....Except of course a UK sub was in the UAE fairly recently, or rather it was supposed to be, but got diverted to Goa http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-2652657...
The story doesn't say when this event happened but would appear not to have been too long ago so I guess it could be in the southern Indian ocean now.
However countries might want to be keeping their subs away due to the dangers of them bumping in to each other, although it wouldnt be a great surprise to find the Chinese are desperately hunting for it.
The story doesn't say when this event happened but would appear not to have been too long ago so I guess it could be in the southern Indian ocean now.
However countries might want to be keeping their subs away due to the dangers of them bumping in to each other, although it wouldnt be a great surprise to find the Chinese are desperately hunting for it.
The Chinese would certainly like the PR scoop, I'm sure.
The operation makes it painfully aware that whilst it is easy to fly an aeroplane over something, it is another matter entirely to stop and pick it up. Do we have nothing that can launch (for example) a helicopter, and retrieve it again, or have I been watching too much Thunderbirds? I suppose this is where flying boats once came in, but there don't seem to be many left, and they are too slow, and they can't operate in rough seas.
The operation makes it painfully aware that whilst it is easy to fly an aeroplane over something, it is another matter entirely to stop and pick it up. Do we have nothing that can launch (for example) a helicopter, and retrieve it again, or have I been watching too much Thunderbirds? I suppose this is where flying boats once came in, but there don't seem to be many left, and they are too slow, and they can't operate in rough seas.
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