helicopter lessons/licence the real costs please
Discussion
I enjoy flying and probably like a lot of guys fancied the idea of becoming a pilot all those years ago. However having found out I am Red/Green colour blind the dream of flying in the air force as was my fixation 35yrs ago was never going to happen 
I have been fortunate with two uncles who were both commercial pilots to have been 'up front' in Cessna's Beechcraft's Pipers' etc and loved it, but yesterday I had a go in a helicopter and as it would it re-kindled my love of flying.
And so the thought of taken lessons has come up again. But being older and perhaps marginally wiser I wonder what the real world costs are of taking matters further and thereafter what experiences people have had as to ownership etc.
Should it make any difference I live in Surrey, with Fairoaks on my doorstep.
Anyone ?
I have been fortunate with two uncles who were both commercial pilots to have been 'up front' in Cessna's Beechcraft's Pipers' etc and loved it, but yesterday I had a go in a helicopter and as it would it re-kindled my love of flying.
And so the thought of taken lessons has come up again. But being older and perhaps marginally wiser I wonder what the real world costs are of taking matters further and thereafter what experiences people have had as to ownership etc.
Should it make any difference I live in Surrey, with Fairoaks on my doorstep.
Anyone ?
The cost of a PPL(H) is mainly driven by the number of hours it takes you to do it. (Because most schools charge more or less the same).
£15k is a guide to how much it costs at an averagely priced school in the UK if you do it in the minimum 45 hours.
How many hours it takes you is driven by stuff like how naturally talented you are, how often you fly, how good you want to be when you get your licence, and how low a standard your particular school will accept before putting you forward for test.
Personally I think it isn't something that it pays to try to do on a fixed budget.
See it as a 12/24 month process, the highlight of every week, and pay as you go until you are well enough trained to pass your test easily and to enjoy going up on your own safely.
£15k is a guide to how much it costs at an averagely priced school in the UK if you do it in the minimum 45 hours.
How many hours it takes you is driven by stuff like how naturally talented you are, how often you fly, how good you want to be when you get your licence, and how low a standard your particular school will accept before putting you forward for test.
Personally I think it isn't something that it pays to try to do on a fixed budget.
See it as a 12/24 month process, the highlight of every week, and pay as you go until you are well enough trained to pass your test easily and to enjoy going up on your own safely.
thanks guys, the cost of the licence is less than I thought, which is a good start !
I certainly see it as an ambition goal, so do not have any need to do a crash course so to speak. I was also interested in the ownership or part ownership costs thereafter. . .I have seen part shares in fixed wing aircraft advertised and assume people may do the same with a Heli. . .any pointers on this question ?
I certainly see it as an ambition goal, so do not have any need to do a crash course so to speak. I was also interested in the ownership or part ownership costs thereafter. . .I have seen part shares in fixed wing aircraft advertised and assume people may do the same with a Heli. . .any pointers on this question ?
There are some people doing shared ownership of helicopters, and they claim it's successful. There's a group at Denham, I think.
There need to be mechanisms in place to protect everyone involved from very large unexpected bills.
In my own personal experience, the main benefits of helicopter ownership are to enjoy owning it and having it on your lawn, to have immediate and unfettered access to it, to know who has flown it, and to find that it's in the same shape as you last left it each time you climb in. All of that is what makes it worth the money.
If that list isn't so important to you, then group ownership or renting it to a school (one with a good reputation) are also options worth looking at.
There need to be mechanisms in place to protect everyone involved from very large unexpected bills.
In my own personal experience, the main benefits of helicopter ownership are to enjoy owning it and having it on your lawn, to have immediate and unfettered access to it, to know who has flown it, and to find that it's in the same shape as you last left it each time you climb in. All of that is what makes it worth the money.
If that list isn't so important to you, then group ownership or renting it to a school (one with a good reputation) are also options worth looking at.
15k is very optimistic, I think mine was around 18-20k, never did the complete maths as it was too scary. The flying is the fun part but be prepared for lots of ground school. The written exams are quite hard as you will need to learn a lot (read, read and read lots of books).
First thing though is make sure you can get a Class 2 Medical, so you know that when the day comes you can actually get a licence (no medical, no licence). Do the Flight Radiotelephone Operators's Licence soon as I believe you need this to do your first solo (which can happen after only 15hrs flying as it did with me).
Also find a school that isn't at a busy commercial airport initial. I did mine at Bristol and spent a lot of time taxiing or waiting to land and remember it is your money you are burning up. However I did gain a huge amount of knowledge dealing with a busy airport and lots of radio calls so there are benefits too.
It is quite a commitment, frequent trips to the flying club and cancelled flights due to bad weather so factor you have enough time to do it.
Lastly flying a Helicopter is so much fun, getting into a car after flying just doesn't have the same buzz and wait until you have done your first cross country solo! Once the bug is set in you will then want to upgrade to R44 (4 seater) or try flying something else like a 300 or even the R66 (Robinson turbine), not to mention the Jet Rangers and Eurocopter... it never ends... enjoy ;-)
First thing though is make sure you can get a Class 2 Medical, so you know that when the day comes you can actually get a licence (no medical, no licence). Do the Flight Radiotelephone Operators's Licence soon as I believe you need this to do your first solo (which can happen after only 15hrs flying as it did with me).
Also find a school that isn't at a busy commercial airport initial. I did mine at Bristol and spent a lot of time taxiing or waiting to land and remember it is your money you are burning up. However I did gain a huge amount of knowledge dealing with a busy airport and lots of radio calls so there are benefits too.
It is quite a commitment, frequent trips to the flying club and cancelled flights due to bad weather so factor you have enough time to do it.
Lastly flying a Helicopter is so much fun, getting into a car after flying just doesn't have the same buzz and wait until you have done your first cross country solo! Once the bug is set in you will then want to upgrade to R44 (4 seater) or try flying something else like a 300 or even the R66 (Robinson turbine), not to mention the Jet Rangers and Eurocopter... it never ends... enjoy ;-)
FIH said:
How many hours it takes you is driven by stuff like how naturally talented you are, how often you fly, how good you want to be when you get your licence, and how low a standard your particular school will accept before putting you forward for test.
The "how often you fly" is the key here for me. If you are based in the UK and have weekly lessons there is nothing worse than rocking up to the flying school to be told the weather is no good. Then when you do get back in the air, your instructor has forgotten what you achieved last time or you have gone rusty and you spend time going back over things. If you are really unlucky this can happen a couple of weeks in a row.SwissJonese said:
Do the Flight Radiotelephone Operators's Licence soon as I believe you need this to do your first solo (which can happen after only 15hrs flying as it did with me).
Not true, unless the rules have changed recently. When you go solo you are "covered" by your FI's R/T licence. You don't actually need to have passed any of the groundschool exams to be signed off for first solo, though some schools insist on having passed air law. FWIW I completed all of the PPL(A) flying syllabus including 10 hours solo, and the 150nm qualifying cross country flight without having passed all of the groundschool exams and without an R/T licence. That said, if (when) I come to do it all again, I will try and get all of the groundschool out of the way in one hit because I find it very tedious. 
The cost of a PPL(H) will depend on the helicopter type (R22 probably being the cheapest, but not the best), the quality of the training school and the individual's natural aptitude and rate of learning.
It's not a race and the best eventual pilots are not necessarily the fastest initial learners. Average tuition to the 'skills test' is c.60 hrs + (@ c.£350+ vat p/h) - so £20k(ish) for the ticket. But, the learning has only just begun and to stay profficient ideally requires at least 50 hrs pa for currency.
However, it is one of the most challenging and rewarding achievements anyone could undertake - it's also the cleverest possible form of flight - fixed wing pilots will hate you
Best progress requires consistency - ideally 2-4 hrs p/w. Weather may interrupt some training, but heliopters are less restricted than fixed wing - on a poor viz day it is still possible to operate at low level (under 100 ft) in the airfield's heli-training area.
Medical is a good first step, but you don't need RT, or even exams prior to first solo.
Best to find a really good School - ask here: www.pprune.org/rotorheads-23/ - then invest in 5 hrs to see if it appeals. Once the bug bites it is totally addictive.
It's not a race and the best eventual pilots are not necessarily the fastest initial learners. Average tuition to the 'skills test' is c.60 hrs + (@ c.£350+ vat p/h) - so £20k(ish) for the ticket. But, the learning has only just begun and to stay profficient ideally requires at least 50 hrs pa for currency.
However, it is one of the most challenging and rewarding achievements anyone could undertake - it's also the cleverest possible form of flight - fixed wing pilots will hate you
Best progress requires consistency - ideally 2-4 hrs p/w. Weather may interrupt some training, but heliopters are less restricted than fixed wing - on a poor viz day it is still possible to operate at low level (under 100 ft) in the airfield's heli-training area.
Medical is a good first step, but you don't need RT, or even exams prior to first solo.
Best to find a really good School - ask here: www.pprune.org/rotorheads-23/ - then invest in 5 hrs to see if it appeals. Once the bug bites it is totally addictive.
I was down at the airfield today and had a chat with my mate who is a helicopter instructor. At his school, it is £330/hr for an R22 and there is a CAA specified minimum number of hours for the PPL(H) of 45hrs which is where the ballpark £15k comes from.
He said that 55hrs was a better average figure to have in mind so that ends up at about £18k. Self hire of the R22 once qualified was slightly discounted at £300 per hour (wet) and £530(ish) wet for the R44.
He was saying that most folk who fly helicopters on a PPL and who could probably afford to buy one don't buy one, because once you take into account the associated costs of owning it, insuring it and running it... it is cheaper to rent one. You can offset some of these costs by leasing it back to a school, but since most of the costs are time-based, ie 50hr and 100hr servicing then you can end up in a swings & roundabouts situation where the money coming in just goes towards the more frequent need for money going out. The ones at the School are privately owned but he was saying that the R22 owner learned to fly in it, as did his brother, 2 sons and another relative so the sums shifted to it being more worthwhile to own.
He said that 55hrs was a better average figure to have in mind so that ends up at about £18k. Self hire of the R22 once qualified was slightly discounted at £300 per hour (wet) and £530(ish) wet for the R44.
He was saying that most folk who fly helicopters on a PPL and who could probably afford to buy one don't buy one, because once you take into account the associated costs of owning it, insuring it and running it... it is cheaper to rent one. You can offset some of these costs by leasing it back to a school, but since most of the costs are time-based, ie 50hr and 100hr servicing then you can end up in a swings & roundabouts situation where the money coming in just goes towards the more frequent need for money going out. The ones at the School are privately owned but he was saying that the R22 owner learned to fly in it, as did his brother, 2 sons and another relative so the sums shifted to it being more worthwhile to own.
thanks guys for all the info. . .I have booked a lesson for July after having a taster flight this morning from Fairoaks to Wycombe. . .flying school is Heliair who have come across as no pressure and the sort of environment that appeals. That said they don't have a R22 but an R44 so . .it just got more expensive if I follow it through. . . GULP !
renmure said:
He said that 55hrs was a better average figure to have in mind so that ends up at about £18k. Self hire of the R22 once qualified was slightly discounted at £300 per hour (wet) and £530(ish) wet for the R44.
That's what I mean about unaffordable. Stick to fixed wing airplanes. They are a lot cheaper.
benters said:
thanks guys for all the info. . .I have booked a lesson for July after having a taster flight this morning from Fairoaks to Wycombe. . .flying school is Heliair who have come across as no pressure and the sort of environment that appeals. That said they don't have a R22 but an R44 so . .it just got more expensive if I follow it through. . . GULP !
If you're going to fly a Robinson, R44 (esp if it's a Raven 2) is well worth the extra over any R22 - and if that's what you will fly when qualified, then best to train on it. But, does anyone near you train on this http://www.guimbal.com/index2.php?l=6&PHPSESSI... (EBG Redhill?)
creampuff said:
Stick to fixed wing airplanes. They are a lot cheaper.
Yes, but can a f/w fly backwards, sideways, hover, land and take off from your garden, favourite hotel, race circuit...... Edited by Geneve on Tuesday 17th June 09:12
Geneve said:
Yes, but can a f/w fly backwards, sideways, hover, land in your garden, favourite hotel, race circuit......
If you buy an Sbach, yes to all of those. Obviously, you need a large garden, and if not own outright, then at least have the capacity to own, your favourite hotel and racing circuit. Not a problem for the average Sbach owner though.£300 an hour for an R22 doesn't sound bad though. If you own a share in a reasonably fruity fixed wing and you take a long hard look at the maths at the end of the year then the wrong side of £300 an hour isn't difficult ( which is why it's best not to look too hard at the maths, and just maintain an air of bemusement as to where all of your cash has gone).
I doubt I'll ever go down the rotary route, as I doubt I'll ever tire of the joy of putting the stick in one corner, the rudder in the other and making the world going base over apex - something that for the rotary fraternity can only ever end badly - but my epiphany on the road from plank bigotry came one day in the back of an R44, just under the Benson MATZ stub, when the mates in the front both suddenly came out with the same expletive, and there was a solid thud from somewhere above my head. Something large, avian and previously at the top of its food chain had gone straight into the rotor head. What impressed me was the speed at which we were no longer flying, but parked in a field with a minimum of drama - any time you feel obliged to make a fixed-wing precautionary or forced landing at zero notice, it will always at best be emotional and expensive.
Going to the USA and doing it with an immersive course is probably the safest and best way to complete it. I have stop started a fixed wing PPL in the UK due to weather, different instructors etc and it has been a pointless and morale damaging exercise as well as not being the safest way to learn for me at least. Now with the good weather Im hoping to complete it in the next few weeks.
Can you affordably maintain currency for safety per year after the PPL? They are amazing machines but to me at least for personal use are a rich mans toy where someone has 15k a year to put into it forever. Now theres lots of people who are well off enough to do that but you get the idea.
The last thing you ever want to do with women/cars/boats/aircraft is to have a brush with bankruptcy or death or both so steer carefully
Can you affordably maintain currency for safety per year after the PPL? They are amazing machines but to me at least for personal use are a rich mans toy where someone has 15k a year to put into it forever. Now theres lots of people who are well off enough to do that but you get the idea.
The last thing you ever want to do with women/cars/boats/aircraft is to have a brush with bankruptcy or death or both so steer carefully
What I mean is that to learn to do something properly you need to be immersed in it and learn from the best. Mistakes need to be corrected immediately or get ingrained, with weekly lessons that soon get dragged to monthly you quickly loose track of whats important and whats not. I would never and I mean never learn to fly a helicopter without doing an immersive course somewhere where the instructors were good/ weather good/ are open to the idea of completing it in a few weeks (Id get the ground exams done before and out of the way)
We aren't talking of a weekly social outlet going down to a club/ school , we are talking about your life. Now fair enough on a single engine plank theres not too many things that can go wrong(collision, accidental flight into IMC, engine failure, bad landing) but on a helo- theres learning to hover, engine failure in that if you do nothing in one or two seconds your a dead man with loss of head speed , deadmans curve, correct torque correction with collective changes, negative g pushover, loss of tailrotor effectiveness, ground resonance as well as a lot of engine noise and vibration to throw you off doing the job properly.
We aren't talking of a weekly social outlet going down to a club/ school , we are talking about your life. Now fair enough on a single engine plank theres not too many things that can go wrong(collision, accidental flight into IMC, engine failure, bad landing) but on a helo- theres learning to hover, engine failure in that if you do nothing in one or two seconds your a dead man with loss of head speed , deadmans curve, correct torque correction with collective changes, negative g pushover, loss of tailrotor effectiveness, ground resonance as well as a lot of engine noise and vibration to throw you off doing the job properly.
Edited by gvij on Sunday 22 June 17:07
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