Railway crossing inquest opens

[saaby93]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-2905...
It looks like it's already begun with making timings longer leads to people getting it wrong.

[Rude-boy]

saaby93 said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-2905...
It looks like it's already begun with making timings longer leads to people getting it wrong.

Sorry but I'm in the 'you don't cross a crossing if the barriers are down - ever - camp. That is unless you have got out of your car, used the phone on the site of every road crossing I have ever looked at, and called if you think that there is a problem and have been told to cross by someone with sufficient authority and knowledge to make that decision.

Very sad but another case of Death by Darwin. All for the sake of 2 minutes getting out the car and picking up the emergency phone...

[matchmaker]

Rude-boy said:

saaby93 said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-2905...
It looks like it's already begun with making timings longer leads to people getting it wrong.

Sorry but I'm in the 'you don't cross a crossing if the barriers are down - ever - camp. That is unless you have got out of your car, used the phone on the site of every road crossing I have ever looked at, and called if you think that there is a problem and have been told to cross by someone with sufficient authority and knowledge to make that decision.

Very sad but another case of Death by Darwin. All for the sake of 2 minutes getting out the car and picking up the emergency phone...

Not quite. If I remember correctly, nobody can authorise you to pass the flashing red lights. The only time I have come across a failed crossing (barriers didn't rise after the train had passed), I telephoned the supervising signal box on the emergency phone to report the fault, phoned plod, them turned round and went home a different way.

[Rude-boy]

matchmaker said:

Not quite. If I remember correctly, nobody can authorise you to pass the flashing red lights. The only time I have come across a failed crossing (barriers didn't rise after the train had passed), I telephoned the supervising signal box on the emergency phone to report the fault, phoned plod, them turned round and went home a different way.

Good point, well made. As said I haven't had to pick one of those phones up so don't know the full SP there but if the answer from the other end is "Wait 10 minutes and if it's not up find another route to your destination but under no circumstance cross" so be it.

My main point is that if the barriers are down you don't cross. PITA if you are sure that there is an issue and can see ped's walking through but there are some things you just don't do in this life. For me what this chap did was akin to running around King's Cross Underground foyer with a florescent yellow back pack, wires protruding, whilst shouting 'Death to all those that don't believe in unicorns" or similar!

[zarjaz1991]

He waited between 30 and 60 seconds before deciding the crossing might be faulty and driving over it?

That's what the article says.

I despair.

30 to 60 seconds? I routinely wait upwards of five minutes and then a train does turn up.

And this is as bad:
"Another witness, a cyclist, told the coroner she had been at the barrier earlier that morning. She said the barrier was down and felt she had been waiting for between five and 10 minutes. Gemma Miller said: "I walked up my bike and round the barrier [and] looked both ways, it was eerily quiet." She added that she felt the crossing was safer with a bike as she could see and hear more clearly than being in a car. "

Have these people any idea how a train travelling in excess of 30mph can appear out of nowhere?

Doesn't matter how "eerily quiet" it is.

There's nothing wrong with level crossings, it's the people who use them.

[Rude-boy]

zarjaz1991 said:

Have these people any idea how a train travelling in excess of 30mph can appear out of nowhere?

Doesn't matter how "eerily quiet" it is.

There's nothing wrong with level crossings, it's the people who use them.

I seem to live in the land of un manned pedestrian crossings, although they are trying to close as many as they can.

I have been using such crossings all my life. I am ultra careful with them. Even so I got a bit of a wake up call a few years ago. It wasn't 'that' close at all but made me think as I had done my usual check clear, go through gate, look left, look right, look left, look right, cross purposefully (whilst still looking both ways) and go straight through second gate on other side before stopping.

[saaby93]

zarjaz1991 said:

And this is as bad:
"Another witness, a cyclist, told the coroner she had been at the barrier earlier that morning. She said the barrier was down and felt she had been waiting for between five and 10 minutes. Gemma Miller said: "I walked up my bike and round the barrier [and] looked both ways, it was eerily quiet." She added that she felt the crossing was safer with a bike as she could see and hear more clearly than being in a car. "

well no - that's normal human behaviour

There's a thread going elsewhere about 20mph signs on the motorway.
You see the first one and think do they really mean 20 or is it a mistake so you ease off to 40-50 just in case
A mile later you get to the second one, nothings happened so it's likely there's a mistake in the control room so you begin speeding up a bit
At the third one, still nothing so youre nearly back at full speed but not quite just in case
Then you see the 'End' sign and wonder what all that was about

Same goes for traffic lights stuck on red - how long do you wait before deciding theyre faulty and going through?

The longer crossings are on red with nothing happening , the more likely someone is to go through
It's normal behaviour
The cyclist confirms that

[Simpo Two]

saaby93 said:

There's a thread going elsewhere about 20mph signs on the motorway.
You see the first one and think do they really mean 20 or is it a mistake so you ease off to 40-50 just in case
A mile later you get to the second one, nothings happened so it's likely there's a mistake in the control room so you begin speeding up a bit
At the third one, still nothing so youre nearly back at full speed but not quite just in case
Then you see the 'End' sign and wonder what all that was about

Same goes for traffic lights stuck on red - how long do you wait before deciding theyre faulty and going through?

The longer crossings are on red with nothing happening , the more likely someone is to go through
It's normal behaviour
The cyclist confirms that

Agreed. It would be an interesting social experiment to set some traffic lights permanently to red and see how long it takes for anyone to go through them.

[Rude-boy]

saaby93 said:

Same goes for traffic lights stuck on red - how long do you wait before deciding theyre faulty and going through?

The longer crossings are on red with nothing happening , the more likely someone is to go through
It's normal behaviour
The cyclist confirms that

Not quite the same in my head or book though.

With a red light I would not go through it after waiting for, say, 5 minutes unless I could see all the way to the stop point for the on coming traffic. Again if it were a 3 or 4 way set of lights I would not cross unless all routes were clear. I would also have it in mind what the speed of the on coming cars would be as a maximum and the fact that cars stop from 40mph much quicker than trains and are also capable of swerving which trains are notoriously bad at

With a train the speed could be very variable and without any indication as to if it is a 20mph about to stop at station just down the road or 60mph, 30 wagon freight. The train is not able to deviate from its course and takes a long time to stop compared to a car/van or even lorry.

I know the point you are trying to make (I think!) but my point is that trains are very different animals to road traffic and so different rules apply. If the general public find this hard to grasp they are in need of re-education.

[Mr Will]

saaby93 said:

zarjaz1991 said:

And this is as bad:
"Another witness, a cyclist, told the coroner she had been at the barrier earlier that morning. She said the barrier was down and felt she had been waiting for between five and 10 minutes. Gemma Miller said: "I walked up my bike and round the barrier [and] looked both ways, it was eerily quiet." She added that she felt the crossing was safer with a bike as she could see and hear more clearly than being in a car. "

well no - that's normal human behaviour

There's a thread going elsewhere about 20mph signs on the motorway.
You see the first one and think do they really mean 20 or is it a mistake so you ease off to 40-50 just in case
A mile later you get to the second one, nothings happened so it's likely there's a mistake in the control room so you begin speeding up a bit
At the third one, still nothing so youre nearly back at full speed but not quite just in case
Then you see the 'End' sign and wonder what all that was about

Same goes for traffic lights stuck on red - how long do you wait before deciding theyre faulty and going through?

The longer crossings are on red with nothing happening , the more likely someone is to go through
It's normal behaviour
The cyclist confirms that

Especially if you're a local. Imagine that you get caught at the crossing every day and every day there is a 5 minute wait before the train appears, doing about 20mph. You'd get to the point when you approach a closing barrier and think "sod it, I know this crossing, there is another 5 minutes yet". You just better hope that's not the day there is an unexpected express train using the line.

[saaby93]

Or at the other end, the barriers come down, the train comes through 10 seconds later, back up after 5 and youre on your way
One day youre sat there for a long 30 seconds, and after a minute you decide theyre broken

Theres a thread here on a live people experiment
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=1&a...

[Rude-boy]

Mr Will said:

Especially if you're a local. Imagine that you get caught at the crossing every day and every day there is a 5 minute wait before the train appears, doing about 20mph. You'd get to the point when you approach a closing barrier and think "sod it, I know this crossing, there is another 5 minutes yet". You just better hope that's not the day there is an unexpected express train using the line.

Is that not the point at which you see if there is an alternative route that avoids the crossing?

[Mr Will]

Rude-boy said:

Mr Will said:

Especially if you're a local. Imagine that you get caught at the crossing every day and every day there is a 5 minute wait before the train appears, doing about 20mph. You'd get to the point when you approach a closing barrier and think "sod it, I know this crossing, there is another 5 minutes yet". You just better hope that's not the day there is an unexpected express train using the line.

Is that not the point at which you see if there is an alternative route that avoids the crossing?

Yes, because I'm sensible and because there actually was one (when I used to live two minutes from a crossing). All I'm saying is I can see why people do it if wait times are often excessive. Make them longer and you'll only make it worse.

[Rude-boy]

Mr Will said:

Yes, because I'm sensible and because there actually was one (when I used to live two minutes from a crossing). All I'm saying is I can see why people do it if wait times are often excessive. Make them longer and you'll only make it worse.

I must say I am a bit of a zealot on this as I see it as quite clear and one of those rules that you do not deviate from. I can see how many though can give in to temptation and ignore. I just can't as every time it ever begins to enter my head I start seeing those videos on Youtube and the like where people get it wrong...

Perhaps a sign or two might help to educate but then you would only have the Darwin candidates families saying that the sign said up to 5 minutes and it was 6 before they attempted to cross...

[saaby93]

Another one if youre looking for an experiment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-281706...
The trouble with this one is its a full barrier crossing so you can get stuck in the middlle
See the bloke lifting the barrier

[Yertis]

saaby93 said:

Another one if youre looking for an experiment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-281706...
The trouble with this one is its a full barrier crossing so you can get stuck in the middlle
See the bloke lifting the barrier

If ever a level crossing should have stayed manned with it's own little signal box, railwayman whirling a big wheel, and old fashioned swinging gates it's that one. I've seen people hit by the gates coming down as they try to nip through, sStupid thing to do obviously but it happens all the time. In fact my Nan was always whizzing though on her bike (which she then used to ride through the Arndale Centre as it was then known, that being the only way you get from where she lived to Poole High Street).

What makes it more odd is that pedestrians can still get over using the footbridge.

Poole – yet another once-wonderful place ruined by planners and developers.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Maybe it's just me, but I hate level crossings - they absolutely terrify me!

If I am sat at a barrier, when the train comes through, to me it just looks massive, very heavy and very scary - and I cannot stop my mind from imagining being hit by one! Ugh! I get the right 'fear.'

Fortunately there aren't many near me that I have to use - and the couple that I do occasionally go over, I don't really like it.

I've probably annoyed cars behind me, but when the barriers come up, I can't help driving slowly onto the crossing, and looking both ways before driving over.

It just seems sensible to me....JUST in case? In the same way that, even when I have a green traffic light, I also always look left and right, as if the lights weren't there like it was just a normal crossroads, to make sure that no-one is flying through a red light.

[wijit]

Rude-boy said:

Mr Will said:

Yes, because I'm sensible and because there actually was one (when I used to live two minutes from a crossing). All I'm saying is I can see why people do it if wait times are often excessive. Make them longer and you'll only make it worse.

I must say I am a bit of a zealot on this as I see it as quite clear and one of those rules that you do not deviate from. I can see how many though can give in to temptation and ignore. I just can't as every time it ever begins to enter my head I start seeing those videos on Youtube and the like where people get it wrong...

Perhaps a sign or two might help to educate but then you would only have the Darwin candidates families saying that the sign said up to 5 minutes and it was 6 before they attempted to cross...

I absolutely agree. I've seen enough of those video's to figure out that I don't want to star in one myself! No journey is worth risking that for.

[TheEnd]

I've often thought the closing of the barriers is far too early.

I can see why people wait, wait a bit longer, still wait, then decided that someone has pressed the wrong button.

[Late Turn]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

I've probably annoyed cars behind me, but when the barriers come up, I can't help driving slowly onto the crossing, and looking both ways before driving over.

It just seems sensible to me....JUST in case? In the same way that, even when I have a green traffic light, I also always look left and right, as if the lights weren't there like it was just a normal crossroads, to make sure that no-one is flying through a red light.

You're certainly not alone in doing so, and it's an approach that I've never understood! Once you're on the crossing (and usually foul of at least one running line, if not both, at this point), what will stopping and looking both ways achieve? If something has gone terribly wrong (which is very very very unlikely), you're then in immediate danger and stationary. If you cross quickly, you've got every chance of being well out of the way. Incidentally, at least one fairly recent fatal collision at an AHB crossing (auto half barrier) was caused by the car stalling on the crossing, unable to be restarted, because (I'm not sure whether this was the formal finding or mere speculation, but it fits with my personal observations at a number of crossings) the driver was being excessively cautious.

TheEnd said:

I've often thought the closing of the barriers is far too early.

I can see why people wait, wait a bit longer, still wait, then decided that someone has pressed the wrong button.

28 seconds, for a train at linespeed, at an AHB under normal working - too early?! Ok, the wait is (necessarily) longer at a full barrier crossing, but there's no opportunity for the impatient motorist to take matters into his own hands there.