PH Heaven - Two fantastic Museums
Discussion
Ah well done so quickly.
We took a trip to Sinsheim, Germany, and visited the Auto und Technic Museum followed by the Speyer museum just 1/2 an hour away. If you have 2 or 3 days to spare there is an incredible collection of planes, cars, bikes, and space stuff. All sorts of rare exotica as well as normal past classics. A lot of Russian or Eastern European military equipment too. Saw "Brutus" in the flesh with a video of her cooking Bratwurst in the exhaust flames!
Enjoyed the Autobahn experience and managed to hit the limiter 5 up after SWMBO nodded off for a while in the XF = 145 indicated.
Have a look:
http://sinsheim.technik-museum.de/en
http://speyer.technik-museum.de/en
My initial plan to visit was to see the TU144 and Concorde beside each other as I have an interest in the design outcomes from both following a similar spec. The wheels on the TU144 seem like kart tyres compared to Concordes Michelins. The only other main difference I could see was the engines were effectively inboard on the TU144 where as the Concorde's were further apart. Wing design looks very similar so I'm surprised there was a such a difference in performance.
Really good few days out and I cannot recommend them more highly (apart from a Zeppelin flight) so if you have a chance - GO.
We took a trip to Sinsheim, Germany, and visited the Auto und Technic Museum followed by the Speyer museum just 1/2 an hour away. If you have 2 or 3 days to spare there is an incredible collection of planes, cars, bikes, and space stuff. All sorts of rare exotica as well as normal past classics. A lot of Russian or Eastern European military equipment too. Saw "Brutus" in the flesh with a video of her cooking Bratwurst in the exhaust flames!
Enjoyed the Autobahn experience and managed to hit the limiter 5 up after SWMBO nodded off for a while in the XF = 145 indicated.
Have a look:
http://sinsheim.technik-museum.de/en
http://speyer.technik-museum.de/en
My initial plan to visit was to see the TU144 and Concorde beside each other as I have an interest in the design outcomes from both following a similar spec. The wheels on the TU144 seem like kart tyres compared to Concordes Michelins. The only other main difference I could see was the engines were effectively inboard on the TU144 where as the Concorde's were further apart. Wing design looks very similar so I'm surprised there was a such a difference in performance.
Really good few days out and I cannot recommend them more highly (apart from a Zeppelin flight) so if you have a chance - GO.
- I bought the VIP 2 day package for both museums, IMAX films with accomodation in Sinsheim.
Went there quite a few years ago now. (Must go again)
We only went to Sinsheim but what an amazing place it is.
Absolutely crammed with cars, tanks, planes, warplanes, racing cars, trains, a submarine, Hitler's car you name it.
The thing that struck me between the 144 and Concorde were the cockpits.
Concorde's looked a little dated but the 144s looked prehistoric.
Absolute must for any petrol head.
We only went to Sinsheim but what an amazing place it is.
Absolutely crammed with cars, tanks, planes, warplanes, racing cars, trains, a submarine, Hitler's car you name it.
The thing that struck me between the 144 and Concorde were the cockpits.
Concorde's looked a little dated but the 144s looked prehistoric.
Absolute must for any petrol head.
longshot said:
The thing that struck me between the 144 and Concorde were the cockpits.
Concorde's looked a little dated but the 144s looked prehistoric.
It was the same with the Russian lunar module, which looked more Jules Verne than space age.Concorde's looked a little dated but the 144s looked prehistoric.
The thing I take from the the Concorde Vs. Tu144 debate was that if you simply copy, it may save money and need less research (you killed all your boffs), but you'll always be one step behind.
Simpo Two said:
longshot said:
The thing that struck me between the 144 and Concorde were the cockpits.
Concorde's looked a little dated but the 144s looked prehistoric.
It was the same with the Russian lunar module, which looked more Jules Verne than space age.Concorde's looked a little dated but the 144s looked prehistoric.
The thing I take from the the Concorde Vs. Tu144 debate was that if you simply copy, it may save money and need less research (you killed all your boffs), but you'll always be one step behind.
It's an interesting thing to able to stand there and compare the 2 of them and the Tupolev as a whole has a more 'military' feel about it.
It's whole design seems a little less fluid.
It's very impressive in the flesh nevertheless.
Max_Torque said:
Scotty2 said:
Just back from a visit to two fantastic museums. As a tease, here is a "mystery picture" for identification. When identified, I'll spill the beans and tell more...
That^^^ handrail across the top of the wing must have played havoc with the glide ratio........ ;-)Scotty2 said:
My initial plan to visit was to see the TU144 and Concorde beside each other as I have an interest in the design outcomes from both following a similar spec. The wheels on the TU144 seem like kart tyres compared to Concordes Michelins. The only other main difference I could see was the engines were effectively inboard on the TU144 where as the Concorde's were further apart. Wing design looks very similar so I'm surprised there was a such a difference in performance.
IIRC the Russians didn't understand the significance of Concorde's wing shape. Their wing had poor low-speed performance and needed the canards to compensate.There was a TV spy drama in the 70s/80s called 'Cold Warrior'; in one episode someone makes a throwaway remark about having fake Concorde plans leaked to the Soviets. I wonder...
The Russians definitely watched Concorde developments very closely and did indeed endeavour to obtain as much technical information as they possibly could. There were some Communist sympathisers who worked in the French and British aircraft industries who were willing to pass on Concorde information to the Soviets.
Don't forget, Concorde was not a military project so any passing on of information would have been looked on as industrial rather than military espionage.
The original Tu-144 prototype did not feature the canards. In fact, the original prototype differed so much from the pre-production and operational versions that they should really be considered separate designs.
Don't forget, Concorde was not a military project so any passing on of information would have been looked on as industrial rather than military espionage.
The original Tu-144 prototype did not feature the canards. In fact, the original prototype differed so much from the pre-production and operational versions that they should really be considered separate designs.
Eric Mc said:
The Russians definitely watched Concorde developments very closely and did indeed endeavour to obtain as much technical information as they possibly could. There were some Communist sympathisers who worked in the French and British aircraft industries who were willing to pass on Concorde information to the Soviets.
Don't forget, Concorde was not a military project so any passing on of information would have been looked on as industrial rather than military espionage.
The original Tu-144 prototype did not feature the canards. In fact, the original prototype differed so much from the pre-production and operational versions that they should really be considered separate designs.
I seem to recall watching a programme on Concorde and espionage years ago. I seem to recall the Russians struggling with a tyre compound so at night going onto the runway to take scrapings. Am I going mad??Don't forget, Concorde was not a military project so any passing on of information would have been looked on as industrial rather than military espionage.
The original Tu-144 prototype did not feature the canards. In fact, the original prototype differed so much from the pre-production and operational versions that they should really be considered separate designs.
ecsrobin said:
I seem to recall watching a programme on Concorde and espionage years ago. I seem to recall the Russians struggling with a tyre compound so at night going onto the runway to take scrapings. Am I going mad??
No, you're not going mad. I remember that programme too. The Russians were fed disinformation too - so they sometimes went off on wasteful wild goose chases.
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