Flotilla or Bareboat
Discussion
Loads of threads on this which I have read but can't make my mind up...
My gf and I would like to charter a yacht (Ionian or Croatia probably) in the Summer for a week or two of cruising.
To give you an idea of our experience level, I have my Day Skipper (tidal) as well as my dinghy Lvl 2 and we keep a small sailing boat on Loch Lomond which we sail most weekends. She has no qualifications but crews for me regularly so whilst I'd say she knows what she's doing, I wouldn't think she'd be confident if I was to be knocked out or some such.
I've done a bit of sailing in the 'Med before but don't have much experience with stern-to mooring in the tight confines of marinas down there, which seems to be the norm.
Having initially decided that a flotilla seemed a good idea for a first-timer, the cost seems high compared to what you can bareboat charter for. Obviously, we'd love to be entirely alone and able to do our own thing but I have slight reservations, mainly in respect to the marina side of things, that I imagined a flotilla holiday would put to rest before bareboat chartering the next time.
So my question is really, am I over-worrying the level of skill and responsibility needed to charter on our own? I'd say I was happy with the navigational and boat handling sides of things and would hope I'd get the gist of the way they moor down there pretty swiftly.
What are your thoughts? Is chartering a disaster waiting to happen or is a flotilla really only needed for very inexperienced sailors?
My gf and I would like to charter a yacht (Ionian or Croatia probably) in the Summer for a week or two of cruising.
To give you an idea of our experience level, I have my Day Skipper (tidal) as well as my dinghy Lvl 2 and we keep a small sailing boat on Loch Lomond which we sail most weekends. She has no qualifications but crews for me regularly so whilst I'd say she knows what she's doing, I wouldn't think she'd be confident if I was to be knocked out or some such.
I've done a bit of sailing in the 'Med before but don't have much experience with stern-to mooring in the tight confines of marinas down there, which seems to be the norm.
Having initially decided that a flotilla seemed a good idea for a first-timer, the cost seems high compared to what you can bareboat charter for. Obviously, we'd love to be entirely alone and able to do our own thing but I have slight reservations, mainly in respect to the marina side of things, that I imagined a flotilla holiday would put to rest before bareboat chartering the next time.
So my question is really, am I over-worrying the level of skill and responsibility needed to charter on our own? I'd say I was happy with the navigational and boat handling sides of things and would hope I'd get the gist of the way they moor down there pretty swiftly.
What are your thoughts? Is chartering a disaster waiting to happen or is a flotilla really only needed for very inexperienced sailors?
I did an Ionian Flotilla a few years ago with my now wife when I had a similar level of experience to you.
Having a lead flotilla boat with an experienced skipper and mechanic aboard makes things very easy - not just with navigation and mooring, but also local knowledge, which restaurants to go to, where you can get a hot shower, deaing with paying local harbourhamster for mooring, where to go to buy provisions etc.
Even as an experienced sailor, with an unfamiliar boat in an unfamiliar cruising area it's nice to have someone who knows there way around both the boat and the locale on hand. If something breaks - which ours did - it's immediatly their problem and there's someone there to sort it out.
The lead crew will identify you as competent very quickly and be pleased to have at least one boat not full of numpties - they'll leave you alone unless you need them if that's what you want.
Having a lead flotilla boat with an experienced skipper and mechanic aboard makes things very easy - not just with navigation and mooring, but also local knowledge, which restaurants to go to, where you can get a hot shower, deaing with paying local harbourhamster for mooring, where to go to buy provisions etc.
Even as an experienced sailor, with an unfamiliar boat in an unfamiliar cruising area it's nice to have someone who knows there way around both the boat and the locale on hand. If something breaks - which ours did - it's immediatly their problem and there's someone there to sort it out.
The lead crew will identify you as competent very quickly and be pleased to have at least one boat not full of numpties - they'll leave you alone unless you need them if that's what you want.
Edited by Seight_Returns on Wednesday 13th May 19:05
I've done 2 flotilla holidays as well as several bareboat trips. I have to say I whole heartedly agree with the above. The lead boat really de-stresses the holiday allowing you to just get on and enjoy the trip. The other crews provide some entertainment in the form of developing characters and you soon learn which boats to avoid. Depending on who the holiday is with you normally get one night to go off and choose chose your own stopover location. I've been back to areas that I first visited on a flotilla and have to say without it I wouldn't have found, and re-found some gems of locations.
Somre of the custom built ACI marinas on the Croatian coast are tight for manouvering the usual 40-45 foot boats most larger parties tend to charter but just two of you will be comfortable on something a bit smaller. Marinas nearly always have staff watching for arrivals who'll lift up the lazy line for the foredeck crew and take the stern springs through the pontoon cleats and chuck them back to the helmsman.
Berthing stern to is a bit of a challenge if you've not done it before so put out plenty of fenders either side and a big one on the transom at the waterline and take your time lining up. If it goes tits up get right out of the berth and have another try. Most marinas are quiet until about 1500 and then get very busy indeed so getting in early helps.
Older harbours are usually just a stone wall and are much easier to berth to but there's not always anybody to help. If nobody's around pick up the lazyline from the stern yourselves and walk it forward. Tie that off first then sort out the stern springs. Watch very carefully for underwater obstructions and available depth as you approach and don't forget to factor at least a couple of feet tidal range for rudder depth as well as as much again for swell if it's windy.
Anchoring just anywhere on the Croatian can be tricky. There's quite a few bays where it's not allowed and most of the places you can stop overnight are very steep to, meaning you'll need a lot of chain out and room to swing in a very big circle. Find a handy tree ashore and use a sternline and main anchor combination whenever you can.
I'd go bareboat if you can charter on your qualifications. Sailing most of the Croatian coast and inner islands is pretty easy as there's hardly any tides or currents to think about, navigation is mostly simple short hop pilotage unless you're out on the more offshore islands like Vis and the weather is pretty stable.
You'll usually get a flat calm overnight and through the morning and a good, usually NW F3-4 suddenly kicking off around lunchtime with quite a lively swell building on exposed reaches. It'll normally die off early evening and quickly drop back to calm.
If you hear anybody forecast a Bora wind take it very seriously - boat fittings will get broken if you get caught out in one and you'll need clean underwear and extra gin in your tonic when you find shelter. The crew might get a bit arsey about it too...
ETA. IIRC you'll need a DSC VHF certificate for any Croatian water charter or flotilla. Best check.
Berthing stern to is a bit of a challenge if you've not done it before so put out plenty of fenders either side and a big one on the transom at the waterline and take your time lining up. If it goes tits up get right out of the berth and have another try. Most marinas are quiet until about 1500 and then get very busy indeed so getting in early helps.
Older harbours are usually just a stone wall and are much easier to berth to but there's not always anybody to help. If nobody's around pick up the lazyline from the stern yourselves and walk it forward. Tie that off first then sort out the stern springs. Watch very carefully for underwater obstructions and available depth as you approach and don't forget to factor at least a couple of feet tidal range for rudder depth as well as as much again for swell if it's windy.
Anchoring just anywhere on the Croatian can be tricky. There's quite a few bays where it's not allowed and most of the places you can stop overnight are very steep to, meaning you'll need a lot of chain out and room to swing in a very big circle. Find a handy tree ashore and use a sternline and main anchor combination whenever you can.
I'd go bareboat if you can charter on your qualifications. Sailing most of the Croatian coast and inner islands is pretty easy as there's hardly any tides or currents to think about, navigation is mostly simple short hop pilotage unless you're out on the more offshore islands like Vis and the weather is pretty stable.
You'll usually get a flat calm overnight and through the morning and a good, usually NW F3-4 suddenly kicking off around lunchtime with quite a lively swell building on exposed reaches. It'll normally die off early evening and quickly drop back to calm.
If you hear anybody forecast a Bora wind take it very seriously - boat fittings will get broken if you get caught out in one and you'll need clean underwear and extra gin in your tonic when you find shelter. The crew might get a bit arsey about it too...
ETA. IIRC you'll need a DSC VHF certificate for any Croatian water charter or flotilla. Best check.
Edited by Jaguar steve on Wednesday 13th May 22:33
I have been on 4 flotilla,s with sailing holidays albeit around the greek isles, apart from a morning brief, usually around 9ish at a taverna, you are then totally free until around 6ish or whatever time you choose to arrive at the evenings destination, the lead crews are always there to help you moor up, as a previous posster said, it totally destresses the docking. Also in tight marinas there is the chance of prop wrap etc etc, i have seen lead skippers many a time dive under a boat with a knife, every lead crew i found could not do enough for you, very helpful and i,m sure other companies who run flotilla,s in the med would have lead crews just as helpful.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
whats all the f
king talk about Marina's btw? the last thing we ever try to go near is a Marina.
Town Quays, Restuarant Jetty's, private or sociable anchorages, but Marina's ? Nope. Never until the
"Come in number 9" time.....
This is indeed true and a quiet anchorage or quayside is the best way to avoid the Romford Navy 'aaavin it 'faaakin large all night. Sometimes needs must 'tho, and on a windy night being tucked up safley on a secure berth whilst everyone else is dragging and fouling each others anchors at 2am has its advantages...Laugh. I like the term 'Romford Navy' - very descriptive. What's the origin of it? Why Romford specifically?
I understand what you're saying about Flotts giving you freedom and so on and I think if money were no object we'd probably just do that. But there seems to be a massive price differential and I suppose I'm really querying whether it's worth the extra for the helping hand. But I suppose that's a silly question as I only I can really know the answer to that! Shall give it more thought and talk to the OH and see what she would feel comfortable with.
Certainly, a secluded anchorage sounds a lot more appealing than a crowded marina. The converse of that is I've never 'gone it alone' before so not had the joy of waking up at 2am with a dragging anchor etc etc. Sounds stressful (albeit less stressful in the Summer in the Med' than Scotland...
I understand what you're saying about Flotts giving you freedom and so on and I think if money were no object we'd probably just do that. But there seems to be a massive price differential and I suppose I'm really querying whether it's worth the extra for the helping hand. But I suppose that's a silly question as I only I can really know the answer to that! Shall give it more thought and talk to the OH and see what she would feel comfortable with.
Certainly, a secluded anchorage sounds a lot more appealing than a crowded marina. The converse of that is I've never 'gone it alone' before so not had the joy of waking up at 2am with a dragging anchor etc etc. Sounds stressful (albeit less stressful in the Summer in the Med' than Scotland...
Disastrous said:
Laugh. I like the term 'Romford Navy' - very descriptive. What's the origin of it? Why Romford specifically?
I understand what you're saying about Flotts giving you freedom and so on and I think if money were no object we'd probably just do that. But there seems to be a massive price differential and I suppose I'm really querying whether it's worth the extra for the helping hand. But I suppose that's a silly question as I only I can really know the answer to that! Shall give it more thought and talk to the OH and see what she would feel comfortable with.
Certainly, a secluded anchorage sounds a lot more appealing than a crowded marina. The converse of that is I've never 'gone it alone' before so not had the joy of waking up at 2am with a dragging anchor etc etc. Sounds stressful (albeit less stressful in the Summer in the Med' than Scotland...
Romford Navy: East Londoners or Essex Chavs found in the Thames estuary most sunny weekends. Loud, brash and ignorant drivers of speedboats, jetskis and large motorboats. Naval sailors usually have all the gear and absolutely no idea how to use it. Easy to spot as they think the estuary is the same as the Norfolk Broards and never take their fenders in when on passage. Often found on the front pages of the local paper and in the rescue section of the RNLI newsletter. Frequently prosecuted or given ASBOs for breaking speed limits or operating craft dangerously or whilst pissed. Every summer Darwinism kicks in and wipes a few of these cretins out.I understand what you're saying about Flotts giving you freedom and so on and I think if money were no object we'd probably just do that. But there seems to be a massive price differential and I suppose I'm really querying whether it's worth the extra for the helping hand. But I suppose that's a silly question as I only I can really know the answer to that! Shall give it more thought and talk to the OH and see what she would feel comfortable with.
Certainly, a secluded anchorage sounds a lot more appealing than a crowded marina. The converse of that is I've never 'gone it alone' before so not had the joy of waking up at 2am with a dragging anchor etc etc. Sounds stressful (albeit less stressful in the Summer in the Med' than Scotland...
Look at the Split region of Croatia. Bareboat and skippering yourself round the islands is a doddle.
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