Sim pilot vs real plane ?
Discussion
Was talking to a bloke on the plane on the way over to Atlanta who turned out to be a bit of a aviation geek, an American guy who had a PPL and was a keen sim pilot as well, he reckoned that he could quite happily land the plane we were flying on (A330), even without having the PPL, just based on his simulation experience, he showed me a photo of a pretty serious looking PC sim setup so was obviously very keen.
He talked a good game, but is that actually possible ?
My opinion was that he sounded like he most likely could (well would rather give him the job if the pilots expire than me) its probably not that difficult once you understand it and the simulation is accurate and it being the same procedure, but its when something doesn't go to plan the outcome would be different.
He talked a good game, but is that actually possible ?
My opinion was that he sounded like he most likely could (well would rather give him the job if the pilots expire than me) its probably not that difficult once you understand it and the simulation is accurate and it being the same procedure, but its when something doesn't go to plan the outcome would be different.
Ah, the age old "Computer Game vs Real Life" conundrum.
With serious Sim games being as good or in fact the actual thing that real Simulators use its not too much of a stretch for someone who's very experienced with the game to apply what they know to real life, but you'll never get the sensations, insight and knowledge that a real pilot would get when going through tuition. I play quite a lot of flight sims and I'd be willing to think that I could fly a light aircraft with the knowledge I had, but a jet, or something big? No chance!
With serious Sim games being as good or in fact the actual thing that real Simulators use its not too much of a stretch for someone who's very experienced with the game to apply what they know to real life, but you'll never get the sensations, insight and knowledge that a real pilot would get when going through tuition. I play quite a lot of flight sims and I'd be willing to think that I could fly a light aircraft with the knowledge I had, but a jet, or something big? No chance!
It's more or less the route that airline pilots go through - they don't let you on an Airbus with zero hours before putting you in the first officer's seat. The only difference is that the airlines will put you in their fancy simulators which are much more realistic. The guy may not have had a multi engine rating but assuming the plane wasn't damaged in some way and the conditions were relatively good he'd have a decent shot.
I was thinking that a PC sim isnt actually that accurate, I mean unless you have foot controls and the like.
I suppose it isnt something that ever happens or is very unlikely, the way to do it would be to stick them in a proper simulator, one on hydraulic rams and stuff that costs millions, that would answer the question.
I suppose it isnt something that ever happens or is very unlikely, the way to do it would be to stick them in a proper simulator, one on hydraulic rams and stuff that costs millions, that would answer the question.
I reckon he could( it worked on Snakes On A Plane 
),his PPL would undoubtedly help and he would be familiar with setting up the autopilot for approach ( does that plane have autoland?)
I'm a flight simnut fan,and I would give it a go too...just before I killed everyone in a massive fireball! 
),his PPL would undoubtedly help and he would be familiar with setting up the autopilot for approach ( does that plane have autoland?)I'm a flight sim
I used to be involved in experience days in a real full motion flight sim.
We'd get loads of PC simmers coming in and we'd make the conditions easy, tell them exactly what to do and when to do it and they'd go away thinking they were awesome, because it was an experience day and supposed to be fun. If we ever let someone go by themselves with no input from us, they'd always crash.
A PC is great for learning scans and procedures, but it's not the same as the real thing. It might even enable someone to set the aircraft up for an autoland but I doubt even that, there's still a lot of manual inputs to an autoland that have to be done correctly.
I seriously doubt he'd be able to land it manually. Not that it's difficult but it still involves training and practice. Like others have said though, he'd be better than running out of fuel if both pilots had died.
We'd get loads of PC simmers coming in and we'd make the conditions easy, tell them exactly what to do and when to do it and they'd go away thinking they were awesome, because it was an experience day and supposed to be fun. If we ever let someone go by themselves with no input from us, they'd always crash.
A PC is great for learning scans and procedures, but it's not the same as the real thing. It might even enable someone to set the aircraft up for an autoland but I doubt even that, there's still a lot of manual inputs to an autoland that have to be done correctly.
I seriously doubt he'd be able to land it manually. Not that it's difficult but it still involves training and practice. Like others have said though, he'd be better than running out of fuel if both pilots had died.
Edited by el stovey on Tuesday 2nd August 21:54
kowalski655 said:
I reckon he could( it worked on Snakes On A Plane ),his PPL would undoubtedly help and he would be familiar with setting up the autopilot for approach ( does that plane have autoland?)
I'm a flight simnut fan,and I would give it a go too...just before I killed everyone in a massive fireball!
Doesn't every modern airliner have full autoland capability but it is more about whether the airfield has the ILS stuff and which category it is ?),his PPL would undoubtedly help and he would be familiar with setting up the autopilot for approach ( does that plane have autoland?)I'm a flight sim
J4CKO said:
Doesn't every modern airliner have full autoland capability but it is more about whether the airfield has the ILS stuff and which category it is ?
An autoland still involves a lot of setting up and inputs during the approach and landing though. It's not just pressing the land now button. Perhaps if his PCs FM(G)C 
Was exactly the same as the real one then maybe he'd know what to do? He'd still have to deal with all the gear and flaps and speed control and stop the aircraft on the runway etc.
From a PPLs point of view (and somebody who has hundreds of hours of PC based flight sim experience flying everything from the wright flyer all the way through to an SR-71) I don't think he could land the aircraft at all.
That being said an individual with a keen interest in aviation and plenty of flight simulator experience may have a slightly better chance at it than somebody that has is not an aviation geek and has not used a flight simulator as they should have a knowledge of the principles of flight and an idea of how the instruments and aircraft are supposed to respond to basic control inputs. In a talkdown situation it is unlikely the tower would need to tell him what the primary flight instruments do for example.
I like flight simulators and use X-Plane 10 all the time, as el stovey said they are brilliant for practising instrument scanning. I also used it for practising radio navigation procedures and general checklists, helps to burn the checklists into your head so you have less chance of missing a step (even if the control does nothing in the simulator I run through the check).
There are addons now (PDMG 737 for example) that replicate as many of the real aircraft systems as it is possible to.
A2A simulations even have a walk around function on their Cessna 172 and 182 (possibly others now too) for performing the full A-checks, including oil checks & fuel drain checks. If you miss handle it, you can foul spark plugs, kill batteries, crack cylinders, the oil has to be changed as do the air and fuel filters, it is an incredible level of detail, full hydraulic and electrical systems. Block heaters the works, it is I believe about as close to owning one as you can get with a PC.
However, it is still quite different to the real thing.
That being said an individual with a keen interest in aviation and plenty of flight simulator experience may have a slightly better chance at it than somebody that has is not an aviation geek and has not used a flight simulator as they should have a knowledge of the principles of flight and an idea of how the instruments and aircraft are supposed to respond to basic control inputs. In a talkdown situation it is unlikely the tower would need to tell him what the primary flight instruments do for example.
I like flight simulators and use X-Plane 10 all the time, as el stovey said they are brilliant for practising instrument scanning. I also used it for practising radio navigation procedures and general checklists, helps to burn the checklists into your head so you have less chance of missing a step (even if the control does nothing in the simulator I run through the check).
There are addons now (PDMG 737 for example) that replicate as many of the real aircraft systems as it is possible to.
A2A simulations even have a walk around function on their Cessna 172 and 182 (possibly others now too) for performing the full A-checks, including oil checks & fuel drain checks. If you miss handle it, you can foul spark plugs, kill batteries, crack cylinders, the oil has to be changed as do the air and fuel filters, it is an incredible level of detail, full hydraulic and electrical systems. Block heaters the works, it is I believe about as close to owning one as you can get with a PC.
However, it is still quite different to the real thing.
I used to play MS-Flight Sim quite a bit, but my 'real' flying experience behind the controls (over 500K miles as passenger!) is limited to a couple of Cessna flights with a friend.
However I got to have a go in a 'full fat' Thales 777 flight sim. With no coaching at all I took off and flew a visual circuit at LGW. It was messy, with many alarm bells going off, but I did not crash. As the sim was a fully certified one no reason to believe, other than the adrenaline side of it being 'real', that I could not have done the same in a real aircraft.
However I got to have a go in a 'full fat' Thales 777 flight sim. With no coaching at all I took off and flew a visual circuit at LGW. It was messy, with many alarm bells going off, but I did not crash. As the sim was a fully certified one no reason to believe, other than the adrenaline side of it being 'real', that I could not have done the same in a real aircraft.
I did a type rating in a full flight simulator, and still screwed up my first landing in the real thing! I flared too much so we carried out a 'baulked landing' which is just a go around but executed from the flare. Plenty of people don't do that on their first go, but it's just an example that even the most sophisticated sim doesn't always give you all you need. I reckon it's doable, but if I was in that position it would be something procedural that would flummox me early on, such as the aircraft demanding "ENTER DEST DATA". Without experience of the FMGC, as Stovey mentions, I would have no idea where to start with that.
I think you'd stand a reasonable chance with a pilot talking you down - someone who knows exactly what switches/levers/settings etc you need before-hand.
Completely cold with no guidance? Fireball is a certainty I'd say.
What I'd be really interested to see is if someone playing DCS:A10C could actually fly a Warthog - I've played it on max realism and the startup procedures alone take 15 minutes.
Completely cold with no guidance? Fireball is a certainty I'd say.
What I'd be really interested to see is if someone playing DCS:A10C could actually fly a Warthog - I've played it on max realism and the startup procedures alone take 15 minutes.
hantsxlg said:
I used to play MS-Flight Sim quite a bit, but my 'real' flying experience behind the controls (over 500K miles as passenger!) is limited to a couple of Cessna flights with a friend.
However I got to have a go in a 'full fat' Thales 777 flight sim. With no coaching at all I took off and flew a visual circuit at LGW. It was messy, with many alarm bells going off, but I did not crash. As the sim was a fully certified one no reason to believe, other than the adrenaline side of it being 'real', that I could not have done the same in a real aircraft.
There it is.However I got to have a go in a 'full fat' Thales 777 flight sim. With no coaching at all I took off and flew a visual circuit at LGW. It was messy, with many alarm bells going off, but I did not crash. As the sim was a fully certified one no reason to believe, other than the adrenaline side of it being 'real', that I could not have done the same in a real aircraft.
/thread.
What were all these alarm bells going off? Perhaps they might have had some impact on the real outcome?
Edited by el stovey on Wednesday 3rd August 11:24
el stovey said:
hantsxlg said:
I used to play MS-Flight Sim quite a bit, but my 'real' flying experience behind the controls (over 500K miles as passenger!) is limited to a couple of Cessna flights with a friend.
However I got to have a go in a 'full fat' Thales 777 flight sim. With no coaching at all I took off and flew a visual circuit at LGW. It was messy, with many alarm bells going off, but I did not crash. As the sim was a fully certified one no reason to believe, other than the adrenaline side of it being 'real', that I could not have done the same in a real aircraft.
There it is. However I got to have a go in a 'full fat' Thales 777 flight sim. With no coaching at all I took off and flew a visual circuit at LGW. It was messy, with many alarm bells going off, but I did not crash. As the sim was a fully certified one no reason to believe, other than the adrenaline side of it being 'real', that I could not have done the same in a real aircraft.
/thread.
Simpo Two said:
el stovey said:
hantsxlg said:
I used to play MS-Flight Sim quite a bit, but my 'real' flying experience behind the controls (over 500K miles as passenger!) is limited to a couple of Cessna flights with a friend.
However I got to have a go in a 'full fat' Thales 777 flight sim. With no coaching at all I took off and flew a visual circuit at LGW. It was messy, with many alarm bells going off, but I did not crash. As the sim was a fully certified one no reason to believe, other than the adrenaline side of it being 'real', that I could not have done the same in a real aircraft.
There it is. However I got to have a go in a 'full fat' Thales 777 flight sim. With no coaching at all I took off and flew a visual circuit at LGW. It was messy, with many alarm bells going off, but I did not crash. As the sim was a fully certified one no reason to believe, other than the adrenaline side of it being 'real', that I could not have done the same in a real aircraft.
/thread.
Just like the bloke in the OP telling random passengers he could fly the plane because he played flight sim on his PC too.
I've played a fair few flight sims, and have about 8 hours solo in gliders. I reckon I'd have a reasonable chance of putting a light aircraft on the ground, but in airliner I doubt I'd even be able to find half the controls it'd need.
I found gliders really difficult to fly in PC based flight sims, as a lot of your sensory input comes from more than just your eyes (in particular the "seat of the pants" feel of hitting a thermal occurs significantly sooner than the instruments tell you about it), so I suspect anyone who's massively in to the in depth sims and know the cockpit and procedures inside out will still struggle with the different situation.
I found gliders really difficult to fly in PC based flight sims, as a lot of your sensory input comes from more than just your eyes (in particular the "seat of the pants" feel of hitting a thermal occurs significantly sooner than the instruments tell you about it), so I suspect anyone who's massively in to the in depth sims and know the cockpit and procedures inside out will still struggle with the different situation.
Edited by RizzoTheRat on Wednesday 3rd August 11:42
Saw a video on YouTube the other day where they stuck a poor clueless 12 year old girl in the cockpit of an Airbus Sim and with the help of a pilot acting as if he was down on the ground, he talked her down.
She landed safely but they were using all the autopilot, ILS, auto land, auto throttle stuff so she only had to find a few buttons and knobs.
She landed safely but they were using all the autopilot, ILS, auto land, auto throttle stuff so she only had to find a few buttons and knobs.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff