Heathrow Hub

[Puggit]

An innovative way of adding a 3rd runway...



http://news.sky.com/story/city-chief-is-mystery-he...

I'm assuming if the wind is from the west, then planes land on the right hand runway and takeoff from the left hand one. Not sure how go-arounds would work!

[Puggit]

We also appear to have lost the M25/T5 junction

[Itsallicanafford]

presumably the M25 would go under the runway?

what are the security implications of this sort of a set up?

[surveyor]

Itsallicanafford said:

presumably the M25 would go under the runway?

what are the security implications of this sort of a set up?

What security implications?

Looks quite a clever setup. I assume they use the the early part of the runway for landing and the later part for take-off. I suppose there could in theory be an issue with go-arounds, but I'm sure they would think that through with a simple missed approach procedure.

[Trevatanus]

Itsallicanafford said:

presumably the M25 would go under the runway?

what are the security implications of this sort of a set up?

No different to the security implications of the tunnel to the central area that goes under the runway, and has done for years.

[Puggit]

Plenty of airports with tunnels. I can think of LHR (as mentioned - there's also a goods tunnel under the southern runway), LBA, MAN, AMS...

[Trevatanus]

Puggit said:

Plenty of airports with tunnels. I can think of LHR (as mentioned - there's also a goods tunnel under the southern runway), LBA, MAN, AMS...

Cargo tunnel used to be on a public bus route (81) that I used as a kid. That was locked down many years ago though.

[Prawo Jazdy]

Itsallicanafford said:

presumably the M25 would go under the runway?

Ha, the work of but a moment! Trying to reposition what must be one of the consistently worst parts of the M25 would make destroying a mountain and turning it into Chek Lap Kok look like a walk in the park! But of course, if there's one thing we Brits do well it's large infrastructure projects without endless, hand-wringing faffing beforehand and then ballooning budgets afterwards. That's us, isn't it? Anyone?!

I've no idea how runways like that would work from an ATC point of view. Manchester has parallel runways, but closer together than Heathrow's and staggered, and IIRC they can't operate as freely as Heathrow can.

It's certainly innovative and I'm sure there's a way to make it work.

[aeropilot]

The oddest thing about this 'scheme' is that is has nothing to do with HAL......so really not sure what the point of it is.......??????

[djc206]

Just give gatwick another runway FFS, the cost will be less, the disruption will be less, the pollution will be slightly less of a concern. A point merge system for gatwick has already been developed so that could be rehashed to suit a dual runway operation and alleviate some of the airborne holding issues that plague Heathrow.

Gatwick has been terrible for airborne holding this summer and it'll only get worse turning into another Heathrow where 2 or 3 times around in the hold is par for the course.

[Trevatanus]

djc206 said:

Just give gatwick another runway FFS, the cost will be less, the disruption will be less, the pollution will be slightly less of a concern. A point merge system for gatwick has already been developed so that could be rehashed to suit a dual runway operation and alleviate some of the airborne holding issues that plague Heathrow.

Gatwick has been terrible for airborne holding this summer and it'll only get worse turning into another Heathrow where 2 or 3 times around in the hold is par for the course.

This.
A new runway for Gatwick and a high speed rail link between the two, effectively merging the two airports into one "hub"
Being able to arrive at LHR for a connecting flight from LGW and transfer between the two airports in under an hour would work, would it not?

[aeropilot]

Trevatanus said:

djc206 said:

Just give gatwick another runway FFS, the cost will be less, the disruption will be less, the pollution will be slightly less of a concern. A point merge system for gatwick has already been developed so that could be rehashed to suit a dual runway operation and alleviate some of the airborne holding issues that plague Heathrow.

Gatwick has been terrible for airborne holding this summer and it'll only get worse turning into another Heathrow where 2 or 3 times around in the hold is par for the course.

This.
A new runway for Gatwick and a high speed rail link between the two, effectively merging the two airports into one "hub"
Being able to arrive at LHR for a connecting flight from LGW and transfer between the two airports in under an hour would work, would it not?

It would be have been a logical thing to do if BAA, as was, hadn't been forced to sell off Gatwick
Instead, they are now 'competing' airports for the same business, so there's no chance of them 'merging' into one effective hub by any means.

[telecat]

Leeds Bradford has part of the runway over the A658. Has worked well for years.

[greygoose]

Prawo Jazdy said:

Itsallicanafford said:

presumably the M25 would go under the runway?

Ha, the work of but a moment! Trying to reposition what must be one of the consistently worst parts of the M25 would make destroying a mountain and turning it into Chek Lap Kok look like a walk in the park! But of course, if there's one thing we Brits do well it's large infrastructure projects without endless, hand-wringing faffing beforehand and then ballooning budgets afterwards. That's us, isn't it? Anyone?!

I've no idea how runways like that would work from an ATC point of view. Manchester has parallel runways, but closer together than Heathrow's and staggered, and IIRC they can't operate as freely as Heathrow can.

It's certainly innovative and I'm sure there's a way to make it work.

You do wonder who comes up with these plans, putting the M25 into a tunnel would be a nightmare. I am starting to wonder if a new runway will ever be built in the southeast, it just seems to be endless reviews with no politicians willing to offend anyone and make a decision.

[Shakermaker]

The proposed the "Heathwick" train a while ago, 35 miles in 15 minutes.

Lots of the airlines said "no" and that was that. Yes it would cost a few quid, but it would be wonderful for those of us who want to get to Heathrow without having to actually go into London to do so.

Meanwhile, I commute regularly to Heathrow and living near to Gatwick as I do, I have no feasible alternative but to drive around the M25 and increase the traffic on there. If I could get the train to Gatwick and then whoosh around the Heathrow, on the company dollar, I would definitely do that.

[anonymous-user]

djc206 said:

Gatwick has been terrible for airborne holding this summer and it'll only get worse turning into another Heathrow where 2 or 3 times around in the hold is par for the course.

Correct, what you are confirming is that they BOTH needed a new runway years ago. Even if that descision was made today, it's still going to get much worse over the next few years.

It's the same old lack of willingness to make long term decisions that has led to this situation. Like rail transport, like roads, like energy production etc etc.

The descision should have beeen made ten years ago and there should now be two new runways in the London area.

[aeropilot]

greygoose said:

You do wonder who comes up with these plans, putting the M25 into a tunnel would be a nightmare.

Why...?

The M25 goes through 2 tunnels around the northern section already.

[saaby93]

Shakermaker said:

The proposed the "Heathwick" train a while ago, 35 miles in 15 minutes.

Surely thats the missing link?
As soon as you can get between one and the other within even half an hour - its much more useful to spread the load
Why Gatwick?
If Brize ever became available or any other mothballed ex airfield - what size is Blackbushe?

[Collectingbrass]

Trevatanus said:

djc206 said:

Just give gatwick another runway FFS, the cost will be less, the disruption will be less, the pollution will be slightly less of a concern. A point merge system for gatwick has already been developed so that could be rehashed to suit a dual runway operation and alleviate some of the airborne holding issues that plague Heathrow.

Gatwick has been terrible for airborne holding this summer and it'll only get worse turning into another Heathrow where 2 or 3 times around in the hold is par for the course.

This.
A new runway for Gatwick and a high speed rail link between the two, effectively merging the two airports into one "hub"
Being able to arrive at LHR for a connecting flight from LGW and transfer between the two airports in under an hour would work, would it not?

Disclaimer I'm a Senior Project Manager for LHR and I'll be building this if the government EVER get off the fking pot

The minimum connect time, within the same terminal group at Heathrow, is around 45 minutes. Much longer than that is not competitive for transferring passengers who care far more about dwell time than they do flight time. Within that 45 minutes you have to get the passenger & their bag off the aircraft, rescreened and back on board. Any time on the train between Heathrow and Gatwick would just add to that time & passengers wouldn't take it - plus you'd have the complexity of getting the bag there too. Airlines want to be where the passengers are and they don't want to be somewhere where they have to leave an airport & go to another one. It's hard enough sometimes getting them to take the internal transit between the satellite terminals at T5.

[Itsallicanafford]

Trevatanus said:

Itsallicanafford said:

presumably the M25 would go under the runway?

what are the security implications of this sort of a set up?

No different to the security implications of the tunnel to the central area that goes under the runway, and has done for years.

IMO, it is a bit different...this plan would make an intersection between the major regional hub airport with the major regiona hub motorway...that's quite a pressure point with the potential to cripple the air and road network