Tornado Typhoon proximity warning
Discussion
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-o...
No proximity warning transmitter in the tornado?
Isnt the Typhoon radar able to pick up other craft?
No proximity warning transmitter in the tornado?
Isnt the Typhoon radar able to pick up other craft?
saaby93 said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-o...
No proximity warning transmitter in the tornado?
Isnt the Typhoon radar able to pick up other craft?
How about looking out of the window?No proximity warning transmitter in the tornado?
Isnt the Typhoon radar able to pick up other craft?
While a Typhoons radar is "powered" for the whole time the aircraft is airborne, the amount of time it actually radiating and generating returns all depends on it's position within the formation, objectives of the flight, which part of the flight regime the aircraft is currently at etc so it's a misconception to think that the radar will be radiating for the entire flight. The same applies to most Fast Jet aircraft, including the Tornado which was also involved.
This is why "getting your head out of the cockpit" and visual scanning is drummed into the pilots but, as always, humans are fallible so as soon as an issue arises (as in this case) we change things to prevent it happening again so in this case the direction the aircraft take to avoid the local town has now been changed to de-conflict the area and prevent another occurrence.
This is why "getting your head out of the cockpit" and visual scanning is drummed into the pilots but, as always, humans are fallible so as soon as an issue arises (as in this case) we change things to prevent it happening again so in this case the direction the aircraft take to avoid the local town has now been changed to de-conflict the area and prevent another occurrence.
Flooble said:
How much use is a proximity warning in the circuit anyway? That's exactly where you would expect to be in proximity to other aircraft ...
Exactly and flying in formation.An ex colleague of mine nearly hit an F15 years ago in a B757. The B757 had TCAS but it turns out only the lead F15 in the formation switches on the transponder as as far as ATC are concerned the formation counted as one aircraft.
There are probably numerous times when some kind of collision avoidance system in a military aircraft would be switched off, otherwise it's going to result in nuisance warnings.
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The Typhoon formation were joining the circuit visually. You look for aircraft on the R/W or departing as well as aircraft already in the visual circuit.As you join that's all ahead of you so there is no requirement for 360 degree vision.
In this case, contributing factors were that the visual circuit of R/W 05 was right hand with a proviso not to overfly Lossiemouth town (noise abatement). This means a joining aircraft / formation either has to turn early (before the end of the R/W - a no no because you could be turning into/in front of aircraft already on the downwind leg) or it/they have to extend upwind so as to go round the outside of Lossie town; this can easily put it/them in confliction with a departing aircraft/formation.
The second contributary factor was that, as the lead called the join, ATC failed to inform him/her that there was a formation on the runway about to depart.
ATC should have replied: "xxx Formation join, two on for departure" which would have given the Typhoon leader the heads up.
The visual circuit for R/W 05 always used to be Left hand meaning this situation could never have occured. I am reliably informed that the circuit changed to Right hand when the Typhoon force arrived at Lossie. A typical case of a new broom changing things merely because it is a new broom.
El stovey said:
Exactly and flying in formation.
An ex colleague of mine nearly hit an F15 years ago in a B757. The B757 had TCAS but it turns out only the lead F15 in the formation switches on the transponder as as far as ATC are concerned the formation counted as one aircraft.
There are probably numerous times when some kind of collision avoidance system in a military aircraft would be switched off, otherwise it's going to result in nuisance warnings.
Ah the good old F15's. Did you hear about the F15's and the El Al freighter?An ex colleague of mine nearly hit an F15 years ago in a B757. The B757 had TCAS but it turns out only the lead F15 in the formation switches on the transponder as as far as ATC are concerned the formation counted as one aircraft.
There are probably numerous times when some kind of collision avoidance system in a military aircraft would be switched off, otherwise it's going to result in nuisance warnings.
A very good friend of mine works aberdeen offshore, lots of interesting stories involving the military and interesting interpretations of the word visual
I remember going to a mid-air collision avoidance seminar at one of the US bases in Suffolk in the early 1980's where they had a film taken from a mid-air collision between a Phantom and Hercules. In a few seconds a dot on the horizon became a full sized hercules then BAMM!! in just the time it took to the pilot to scan the Phantom's instrument panel. The point was that without collision avoidance the mark one eyeball was just about useless at those speeds.
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