RAF Marham Tornadoes vs Glider near miss

[saaby93]

Near miss
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-39116...
Re the control tower - what's a collision avoidance receiver

[Krikkit]

The full report from Airprox goes into it (pdf warning).

Essentially the glider had the cheaper collision avoidance system FLARM onboard, the Tornado had TCASII - Marham tower didn't have anything that could receive the glider's data, so couldn't give the Tornadoes any idea what flight level they were at.

[essayer]

Although the gliders didn't do anything wrong, it was a bit daft to route a competition past/through a MATZ at that time of day really

[ecsrobin]

essayer said:

Although the gliders didn't do anything wrong, it was a bit daft to route a competition past/through a MATZ at that time of day really

Glider pilots are a pain. You'd think knowing that an operational airfield is close by to avoid the area or notify them. At lasham the pilots like to ignore the MATZ (military aerodrome traffic zone) and not establish comms with air traffic. Whilst not legally required not only is it good airmanship but it also helps with deconfliction and flight safety.

[Simpo Two]

Krikkit said:

Essentially the glider had the cheaper collision avoidance system FLARM onboard, the Tornado had TCASII - Marham tower didn't have anything that could receive the glider's data, so couldn't give the Tornadoes any idea what flight level they were at.

I'm thinking that radar does height, and Marham probably has a radar. Don't gliders show up on radar?

[King Herald]

Simpo Two said:

I'm thinking that radar does height, and Marham probably has a radar. Don't gliders show up on radar?

So, if Jerry invaded by glider..........

[djc206]

Simpo Two said:

I'm thinking that radar does height, and Marham probably has a radar. Don't gliders show up on radar?

Why they didn't let ATC know what they were doing is baffling. The GA community in this country can be very reckless sometimes.

Edit: didn't read the airprox report before typing

Edited by djc206 on Monday 6th March 22:54

[tr7v8]

Simpo Two said:

Krikkit said:

Essentially the glider had the cheaper collision avoidance system FLARM onboard, the Tornado had TCASII - Marham tower didn't have anything that could receive the glider's data, so couldn't give the Tornadoes any idea what flight level they were at.

I'm thinking that radar does height, and Marham probably has a radar. Don't gliders show up on radar?

I suspect not very well as most are glassfibre and Kevlar.

[djc206]

tr7v8 said:

Simpo Two said:

Krikkit said:

Essentially the glider had the cheaper collision avoidance system FLARM onboard, the Tornado had TCASII - Marham tower didn't have anything that could receive the glider's data, so couldn't give the Tornadoes any idea what flight level they were at.

I'm thinking that radar does height, and Marham probably has a radar. Don't gliders show up on radar?

I suspect not very well as most are glassfibre and Kevlar.

They do when they're transponding which would be the smart thing to do. Even if there is no Mode C and just Mode A conspicuity displayed at least you are aware that someone is out there playing. They do sometimes when they're not transponding but it's not guaranteed and because of their speeds can appear like clutter.

Radar only does height if Mode C is enabled and if the glider is squawking a conspicuity code it's considered unverified and therefore taken with a pinch of salt.

[saaby93]

djc206 said:

They do when they're transponding which would be the smart thing to do. Even if there is no Mode C and just Mode A conspicuity displayed at least you are aware that someone is out there playing. They do sometimes when they're not transponding but it's not guaranteed and because of their speeds can appear like clutter.

Radar only does height if Mode C is enabled and if the glider is squawking a conspicuity code it's considered unverified and therefore taken with a pinch of salt.

How much has been spent on stealth technology when all you need to do is buy a glider?

[essayer]

Gliders don't have transponders, some might have FLARM fitted but not all.

I used to feel nervous crossing a MATZ, crossing/loitering the extended centreline at 1500ft would be a real no-no for me, radio contact or not.

[williamp]

I do get the feeling Gliders and Cyclists are cut from the same cloth: I have a right to be here... etc etc

[djc206]

essayer said:

Gliders don't have transponders, some might have FLARM fitted but not all.

I used to feel nervous crossing a MATZ, crossing/loitering the extended centreline at 1500ft would be a real no-no for me, radio contact or not.

Some must do otherwise they wouldn't be shown on radar squawking 7000. Low power lightweight transponders are available I believe.

[kurt535]

ecsrobin said:

essayer said:

Although the gliders didn't do anything wrong, it was a bit daft to route a competition past/through a MATZ at that time of day really

Glider pilots are a pain. You'd think knowing that an operational airfield is close by to avoid the area or notify them. At lasham the pilots like to ignore the MATZ (military aerodrome traffic zone) and not establish comms with air traffic. Whilst not legally required not only is it good airmanship but it also helps with deconfliction and flight safety.

To be fair, there are even more PPL's who avoid talking to Farnborough/London/whoever cos they get nervous.......so many pinch points between stansted and luton as an example i find it safer to get permission and fly through their zones. i have no proof whatsoever, but it seems a similar situation here, glider pilots didn't want to talk. whilst there isn't a legal requirement Im sure somewhere in the ANO its a bit like having mode s/s and not using it and there's a serious incident...be prepared for problems...

[essayer]

RT training isn't mandatory for gliding, there are gliding frequencies which can be used without a licence but it's full of nonsense like 'is that you over St Neots, Bob?' '5 kts over the power station' 'Jim landed out' so you often turn it down (I flew with one guy who would occasionally yell at them all to shut up)

I'm not sure what percentage of cross county pilots would have a RT licence, some might via PPL or additional training but it isn't mandatory and I suspect it's a minority.

Glider pilots should be sensible and avoid ATZs, NOTAMs and controlled airspace - provided they aren't completely lost - but if they are scratching around at 1500ft in a MATZ at the tail end of a competition, they've probably got their hands full staying in the air or choosing decent fields. RT would be last thing on their mind.